The Ultimate Circular Argument
John: The Big Bang, abiogensis and evolution are true.
Mark: How do you know?
John: Because scientists said so.
Mark: Which scientists?
John: All the of them.
Mark: How do you know they all say so?
John: Well, at least a lot of them do.
Mark: Why does that matter if a lot of them do?
John: Because truth is decided by a concensus of scientists.
Mark: No it’s not. You can’t vote something to be true, it’s just true or not, whether a scientist says it is or not, right John?
John: But most likely the majority will be right, especially if they are scientists.
Mark: How do you know either of those?
John: Because it’s the job of scientists to find out the truth. And as for majority, well it’s like with math, if all people are saying 2+2=4 and only the crazies are always disagreeing then you can safely say the majority is usually right.
Mark: But not always John, right?
John: No not always.
Mark: And as for jobs, just because a thing is your job doesn’t mean you’re going to do that job. Like you acknowledge, some people are crazies, but it’s not that simple, some are also greedy, or mentally ill, but not fully insane. But so, how do know it’s the majority that believes in evolution?
John: Sure seems like it to me.
Mark: Why don’t you consider anyone how does “science” a scientist?
John: Because those who have it as a job have to do it all the time so they would know better.
Mark: But everyone does scientific things every day in life to get things done, it’s not just people who call themselves scientists. If I play tennis often for fun, or sing often, but I do neither for money, does that mean I’m not a tennis player or singer?
John: Depends on how good you are.
Mark: But so why would having a job mean you are doing a good job then?
John: Well they’d get fired.
Mark: But there’s bad people in jobs that keep them for years, and bad businesses, teachers, schools, religions and products, including software, that can stay around for years or even thousands of years, like with bad religions, so why wouldn’t that be true for scientists? So, why do you trust these scientists who say evolution is true, or the Big Bang or evolution?
John: Because I saw they got degrees in biology and physics.
Mark: But rarely does a physicist have a degree in biology, or a biologist a degree in physics. Being a physcisist doesn’t mean you’ll know if evolution is true, and being an evolutionist doesn’t mean you’ll know if the Big Bang is true, because they very little related in common with each other, except supposedly being partly supposedly, “random”, and yet, you trust in evolution because physicists have told you they believe it, and in the Big Bang because biologists have told you they believe it. Isn’t that illogical of you?
John: If the scientists have great intelligence, and they can understand the basics in other fields then they can say something is true that they don’t specialize in. And some do have degrees in both fields. And if the theories are compatible and there’s no other logical choices then it’s perfectly reasonable to believe both.
Mark: Ok, but yet you just admitted that you don’t need to specialize in something to know if it’s true or not, so then, a person doesn’t have to have to have some science job to be a scientist, and to know if some so called scientific theory is true or not, nor would they need to always practice science, but only have great intelligence, but I say, sufficient intelligence. Further, how do you know that it’s not a reasonable logical alternative to believe that God created the universe 6,500 years ago, as the Bible indirectly teaches, and is still active now and then in this universe, and cares about what everyone thinks and does?
John: Because, the majority of scientists with degrees in biology and physics say that’s not how it happened, and they have proof.
Mark: But the majority of people who also use science in their lives, and who specialize in the science of morality and religion, and who know history, including archeology, and who specialize in the understanding of other spiritual things besides religion, like on demons, angels, prophecy and miracles, and philosophy, also have proof. And I don’t believe it matters if they are the majority or not, because truth doesn’t depend on a majority to believe it.
John: Well religionists aren’t scientists.
Mark: Who told you that? You contradicted yourself by telling me that scientists could know if the Bible was true or not, so aren’t they “religionists”? So if they can specialize in knowing if religion is true or not, can’t “religionists” know if something claiming to be scientific is true or not?
John: I mean that religionists don’t understand science.
Mark: But I just told you that’s not necessarily true. People use the scientific method to learn things every day, people who don’t call themselves scientists. Kids and adults do it. In fact kids are taught to do it regularly in school, that includes a religious kids, and religious people are the majority of people in the world in comparison to atheists and agnostics or people who don’t have any stable religion.
John: Yes but they don’t have a high degree of understanding of physics or biology. Little kids and college students who are just beginning to learn the complexities of the Big Bang, abiogenesis and evolution don’t qualify to make that determination of whether it’s true or not.
Mark: But John, then you can’t either, because you don’t specialize in them, not even in religion, you sell barbecue spice mix for a living and watch anime in your spare time. All you read was some book about why creationism was wrong, one I read, which was filled with flaws, and which doesn’t even cover the evidences for the Bible but just ignores it.
John: You’re opinion that it contains flaws, I saw none.
Mark: Not my opinion because I specialize in evidence for the Bible, my facts, one which millions would or do agree with, or at least admit make the Big Bang, abiogenesis and evolution unprovable. And like I said, which you keep forgetting: you said if you don’t specialize in something, that you can’t know if it’s true or not, but earlier, you said you could because of the majority of scientists saying such and such was true, so, you’ve contradicted yourself.
John: Okay, say I did specialize in everything, say I was a theologian, philisopher, biologist and physcisist, and say I then believed in the big three: the B.B., A. and E.?
Mark: But you’re not John.
John: What if I found someone who was and they told you?
Mark: But John, you already contradicted, and I gave you a reasonable explanation that is obvious too, as to why you don’t need to specialize.
John: Well okay then, since I don’t need to, once again, I say the Big 3 are all true, because I have sufficient intelligence to know so.
Mark: But, unlike you, I specialize in religion and the most important aspect of philosophy, and, the scientific method, and I at least do as much science as you at least, so wouldn’t I know better then you, didn’t I expose the flaws in your logic, which you admitted to?
John: And scientists expose yours.
Mark: John, like I said, anyone can be a scientists who doesn’t call themselves one, so what do you mean by “scientists”? And what flaws?
John: Look, you don’t need to know all about the Bible to know it’s wrong. If the evidence that scientists have found disagree with certain parts, then it’s wrong.
Mark: I didn’t say you needed to know everything about it, or religion, but what is this evidence Genesis is wrong?
John: The background radiation in the universe proves there was a beginning that was billions of years ago, and the Milley-Urey experiment where electricity combined with chemicals made amino acids necessary for life, and then theirs the fossil record, and theirs radiation and carbon dating that shows the ages of everything, and all that evidence is in agreement.
Mark: John, I’ve studied all those supposed evidences thoroughout, and they do not all agree. You also left out a mountain of things that contradict those supposed evidences. So, they are not sufficient evidence.
John: So you say. What’s your evidence?
Mark: It’s as much “out there” as you’re is. You can easily find it with a search engine, or in libraries or book stores.
John: It’s all garbage, your evidence, I already read that anti-creationism book.
Mark: Which I said is full of flaws, as you can find on the Internet and other places or from the mouths of creation scientists if you can find any, and which again, doesn’t cover the evidences for the Bible.
John: Well you have your beliefs, and I have mine, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Mark: I already know I disagree with you, I already know I have my beliefs, you’ve made no point.
John: The point is, you creationists don’t know physics or biology, the Bible just says how the universe was created, but their’s no evidence for it.
Mark: John, anyone can go out into various deserts or other places, and find sea fossils on the land, and see features that were caused by a flood, obviously there was a world wide flood thousands of years ago like the Bible says. There is no logical reason to come up with hellishly complicated fancy theories and bring up millions or billions of years and which makes no sense, because if things were that old, the evidence would be long gone, just like your supposed fossil commons that prove evolution. Fossils would not millions and billions of years in the ground, let alone in a nice neat order, and no one has ever showed such a column. There’s even traces of Noah’s Ark still left, even a city or large monument a few hundred miles away, that various archeologists believe is the oldest city in the world, which indicates a large amount of many different types of animals existed there at one time, but which is now somewhat of a desert.
John: I’ve found no such fossils anywhere or heard of such a monument, plus, it’s all speculation even if true.
Mark: It’s sure is more reasonable then your Big 3, for which there is no evidence. My evidence is days to thousands years old, and plenty of it, yours is an absurd millions to billions years old, and no one can even see it up close, unlike the Bible’s. And miracles happen every day, or the opposite, evil supernatural things.
John: Hah! “Miracles and evil supernatural things?” Do you know how crazy you sound? You believe in fairies!
Mark: I didn’t say anything about fairies. And there’s more evidence for fairies then your Big Three, that’s for sure, you believe in what is more absurd then fairies.
John: I have the majority of prestigious and degreed scientists to back me up Sir Flying Fairy In the Sky Believer, you just have a handful of dying churches who are in denial.
Mark: John you won’t even look at the evidence and keep forgetting your errors, and that I’m the one who pointed them out, yet you speak and act as if you are superior then me. You are the blind, deluded and arrogant one, not me. You argue agaist what you haven’t even listened to, won’t search for the evidence, and when you get hints of it, turn your eyes so that you can’t have to see it, and when you can’t, you show resentment and try and bring up another subject, or just repeat the same arguments I just showed weren’t logical.
John: I don’t care, you wear me out with your endless questions and long winded speeches and lectures. Can’t you see you’re bothering me? Now go away.
Mark: But I thought you cared about science so much that you want everyone else to.
John: Who said I cared about you? I only care about what true scientists have to say. All you do is go around in circles. If you don’t go I’ll report you for trying to shove your beliefs down my throat. You really need to see a doctor and take your meds. You and your crazy kind belong in a mental institution. Now be respectful and leave me alone and get lost if you have the mental capacity to do so.
Mark: I have a PhD in particle physics, psychology, philosophy, biology, hydraulic engineering, geology, mineralogy, evolutionary science, theology, ancient world history, from Bath, Caltech, Vanderblit and Emory Univerity, here’s the photos on my computer to prove it and the year book photos.
John: So? So you either cheated, or even if you didn’t you’ve become insane or deluded and no doubt you’ve been ostracized by your peers or will be for your quackery. If those degrees are real, you’ve become deluded, insane or have chosen to use what you know to be a conartist and prey on the weak, simple and gullible.
Mark: Just more biased speculation from you John, but no proof. This isn’t about scientists and truth, otherwise you’d believe me, this is about what you wish was true, your hatred of reality and your pride. Even I didn’t have those degrees, everything I said to you would still be true. And as for my “peers”, my true friends are the ones that love God above all, not all above God. Those who love all above God, will end up below those who love him and we will be on top forever.
John: Very dramatic talk, but you know what is more dramatic? You’re God who created hudreds of millions of people with severely defective brains or who grow up severely abused, and who is going to send them to Hell, and is still creating more of them and shows no sign of stopping. That’s the God you worship and are trying to get everyone else to worship. I may be wrong, but your God is worse than wrong. I would never do what your God does.
Mark: How can you a person who lies and keeps up the lies claim to know what you will or will not due in the future? You show no signs of stopping lying yet you talk and act as if you are a righteous person who defends truth. And about God’s mercy, why should he show any mercy to someone who has deserved none, and when he shows even a little, shouldn’t he at least get a little praise, or when he shows much to one who hates him, shouldn’t he get much, yet no matter what he does, you show little mercy and dishonor him much while you yourself also do what you please.
John: Oh but Mark, I do not claim to be love or perfect or truth, your God claims to be all those big three! He even claims to be light, yet will send billions into eternal darkness, so you claim, so when he doesn’t show much mercy to those to whom much horror has fallen on, how can you maintain that he is perfect and that I may not judge him? You are the one losing this argument because of your stubborness and pride, not me!
Mark: So, you are able to see all the mercy God shows? You can say God hasn’t showed many more people sufficient light to appreciate that it is superior to evil and should be chosen over evil? You have seen the entire history of the world, you know the lives of all beings in all places, under earth, on earth, above earth and in places you don’t even know exist? Life will be endlessly created according to God, and there will only be evil in Hell by the same number of people there. So, you are wrong to say God is not what he claims to be. And infinity does not compare to any number, because any other number is limited. So you cannot say God is more merciless than merciful, more angry than loving, more at war than at peace, takes away more than he shares, destroys more than he creates, ignores more than he listens. It’s you who are the opposite of truth, charity, mercy, love, patience, and light. Show me your abundance of good and endless deeds that endlessly outweight your choices to be evil or merciless, then I’ll admit you can be God’s judge. You said yourself, you don’t admit to be perfect, why then do you act as if your judgment of God is perfect?
John: You love to argue don’t you? You love to point out everyone’s faults. I bet you live for arguments, that’s why you’ve turned your backs on your peers isn’t it? You couldn’t stand their peace. You have a sick need to find fault with everything.
Mark: Your talking about you John, not me, that’s all your doing is coming up with accusations without evidence.
John: You’re pointing out my faults to no end arent you?
Mark: I’m correcting you out of love John, you’re finding and making up imaginary faults out of confusion, resentment, anger, pride, presumptions and ignorance, there’s a difference between me and you.
John: I admitted when you made some good points, but you can’t admit one fault.
Mark: Why should I if I’m not at fault? And you don’t admit, you slyly move to another subject or come up with a “What if such and such were the case?” which is useless since it never will be and when I too could ask, “What if?”
John: So you never make mistakes?
Mark: I never said I didn’t.
John: But you don’t admit them.
Mark: I have, just not in this case, because I’ve made none.
John: Sounds like overconfidence.
Mark: To you.
John: And I know it would to many others.
Mark: Not everyone, and it wouldn’t matter if it did, so long as God let me know I was right; majority belief doesn’t determine truth.
John: And he’s let you know you are right has he?
Mark: He has.
John: He’s talked to you?
Mark: Through his word.
John: You have conversations through him with his word? Sounds crazy to me.
Mark: I obviously mean he has said what is true by his word.
John: Obvious to you, but you and other creationists seem crazy to me and a whole lot of others.
Mark: And the same applies to you.
John: We’ll see what happens when we die.
Mark: Or maybe while we’re still alive, why would after death be a better proof?
John: Okay then Can’t Miss a Single Mark, we’ll see what happens. Either you’ll be in the sky and I’ll go to Hell forever, or it won’t happen.
Mark: Hell is forever John, there are no second chances.
John: Is it the same with aborted babies and the people born with terrible disabilities and horrible parents?
Mark: It’s the same for those born into a good life.
John: But what of those not born into a good life?
Mark: They get less than what they deserve after being born, but after most die, will get exactly what they deserve, but not some will get what they don’t deserve, eternal forgiveness and love.