After writing a grammatical exposition of the controversial passage in Matthew which Catholics claim shows Peter is their Pope, Claudius the Catholic said,
“Now that I have all that grammar out of the way we need to all sit and think about what this all means.”
Sure, now let’s look at your second statement after that one:
“We have the prophecy from Daniel that the Catholic Church fulfills”
So then rather than sticking with that passage you jump thousands of years back to Daniel, well if you can do that I can also refer to other Scriptures on whether or not the Catholic Church is the true Church or not. I’m guessing you’re talking about Daniel 2, being that this is the only speech I could find on the net from a Catholic claiming that D2 supported Catholicism,
“It refutes the Protestant and Mormon notion of a “Great Apostasy.” Believers in a Great Apostasy believe that at some point, either Catholicism replaced the True Church, or overran it. Yet Daniel 2′s prophesy says that during the days of the Roman Empire, Christ will set up a Kingdom, and it’ll never “be left to another people.” There’s no room for a New Church or New Kingdom in a post-Roman age (in either sense of “Roman,” there). No need to hypothesize about who the first pope was, or when the Church was formed. Daniel 2 lays the foundation you need, and the New Testament clears up the gray areas.”
The problem with this part of the Catholic’s rant are obvious:
1) The Bible says there will be an apostasy in the New Testament, more than once. So this Catholic like so many others just doesn’t know, forgets or deliberately avoids certain Scripture.
2) He’s forgetting yet another Scripture in which Jesus said that his kingdom should not be awaited, but that it was already here. OBVIOUSLY, there was no Catholic Church at that time, and if Peter was the first pope, he sure wasn’t at that time. So out goes that massive stretch.
3) The Roman Catholic church is not a kingdom. And Revelation does say the Catholic church whores about with them (“seven mountains”, don’t forget).
4) That line about the church not being left to another people as evidence is utterly stupid and infantile and nonsensical: A protestant could easily make that claim as evidence, what does it prove? “Hi, Bible says my church won’t be left to another people, so you Catholics aren’t the true church.” WOW EXCELLENT PROOF! NOT. Really how stupid can you get Catholics? Why not say, “Bible says Jesus is the Christ, that’s means our Christ, so you’re not the real Christians.” Wow, awesome, proved sooo much. Might as well say, “Nanny nanny boo boo we are true not you.”
Yet, if I and other Christians don’t read Catholic arguments like that, we face replies like, “Nanny nanny boo boo I can’t hear you.” (referring to us). But no: we don’t have to endlessly read Catholic claims and defenses, once you read their some of their common replies and claims as to why they are the true Church, whether it has an official stamp of of approval from their Pope or not, and review their TRUE history, whether it has the official seal of approval from their Pope or not, and see the flaws in them, whether their Pope acknowledges them or not, that is enough ignore the Nanny Boo Booers who just want to torment you more for not following them.
What makes the other people claim so ultra stupid, is that it makes no point and the Catholic using it is implying that it’s true just because he says it is (based on his claim that Kingdom = Catholic Church). How is that better than the Mormon babble that he claims is false? Better than their “oh Jesus said he has ‘other sheep’ and ‘other sheep’ is the Indians, bcuz the Book of Mormon said so. Just trust your good heart we’re right, and pray too so you can trust more, and if you don’t trust, well then you must be wrong, because we can see the truth no matter what you say, and truth is our hearts tell us we’re right, and the Book of Mormon too.” Vain, stretched, contrived, absurd, circles.
Moving on, what about Revelation? Why do Catholics keep avoiding that Book? The Catholic Church is CLEARLY being referred to in Revelation, CLEARLY fulfills the prophecy of the whore that rides the beast and the reference to the seven mountains makes it almost plain. No other entity fits that prophecy, despite the repeated fallacy made by Catholics when they refer to Protestants as a single entity, even though they contract themselves by trumping up the divisions between them! You can’t have it both ways Arbitrary Church.
Concerning the grammar? As usual, we only need to refer to other passages of Scripture. Over and over God and Jesus are called the Rock of eternity, and Jesus the foundation. ALL the apostles are referred to as the foundation, not just Peter, and obviously God does not mean bedrock it’s on or whatever is holding the foundation together (obviously that would be God, not Peter or the apostles). And anyone who has studied Protestant arguments on this matter, if they aren’t a newbie, knows the argument that Peter does not nearly contribute as much as Paul did, and it would make more sense to call Paul the foundation of the church. Peter supplemented Paul, not the other way around. So then it’s not unreasonable just based on that fact that Jesus wasn’t calling Peter a cornerstone or secondary foundation and the apostles playing inferior roles. Another Protestant argument is that Jesus pointed to himself, which some Catholics think absurd or unrealistic. BUT IT ISN’T, because Jesus gave a riddle to the Pharisees in which it clearly states he was referring to himself, rather than what they thought he, to them, appeared to LITERALLY mean, and so Catholics are being arbitrary with how they are literally interpreting the “and on this rock” passage. Further, NOTHING in that verse says anything about Peter being a Pope, or that the Catholic Church is the true Church. Any idiot can proclaim, “Peter was our pope, here’s proof: other members of the Catholic Church agree” or “Oh these Christians said so” and NOT bring up the CHARACTER of those people they use as witnesses, something clearly not Biblical to do. You don’t just trust anyone, that is ARBITRARY, it’s “picking and choosing”. It’s evil. And Catholics hate to hear this:
“By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?”
Do I even need to start pointing out the severe corruption in your Church? Do I need to point out the hypocrisy of your church in venerating Mother Teresa, or electing one corrupt Pope after another? The abortion rates? The rapes? And that other evil you all know is a problem?
But the arbitrary Catholic defense to that is, “Everybody sins dupe de dupe.” Oh yes, you’re right, “no biggie”, “everyone does it,” “But Dad, Johnny Calvin also put his hands in the cookie jars, so look at him not us, and just keep letting us sin.” And you sure can’t speak of Protestants as a single entity, because as you yourselves say of us, “Oh you Protestants are evil terrible horrible, ur the evil doers!” Because as you yourselves say, “They are divided into so many Churches! They can’t all have the Holy Spirit!” Yes, you’re right, they can’t all, and you are included among the division, or did you forget the Protestants DIVIDED from you? Once again: Arbitrary Arguing. And so, answer your own question, judge for yourselves, if not all can have the Holy Spirit, then who does? Maybe instead of repeatedly looking in the mirror and make vain repetitions to convince yourselves that it’s you who have it, like narcissists, maybe examine the deeds of other churches, maybe consider the true Church doesn’t go by a single name, like a business corporation, some magic name that makes you saved, some magical club name, but that they can be KNOWN BY THEIR FRUITS, their deeds, not “A NAME.”
I’ve read Robert Sungenis’ argument on the “Petra/Petros” argument too, and found his argument nonsensical and contradictory. James White does too: http://vintage.aomin.org/Epitetaute.html
And one last thing, the Bible forbids logomachy (arguing over words), which is what you Catholics are doing when you strive over petra and petros, and put into question the trustworthiness of Scripture like Muslims and Mormons do, when you pretend there is another translation that justifies you. “Trust me,” said Joseph Smith, “Put you’re trust in me when I tell you that God chose me and that I speak his will and that these golden plates I translated and am hiding under this cloth really are under this cloth. And look at me, am I not beautiful, loving, and well spoken? And therefore I tell you the Bible has been corrupted and would support me if we had the originals and if those prophets weren’t so sinful and rebellious, unlike me. Trust my revision and divine interpretations of it, or else, you can’t be apart of the true church and you are going to Hell and you will never have the Spirit. Keep my covenants.” “Trust us,” said the Muslims, “Trust that Christianity is wrong because you’re Bible has been altered. It doesn’t preserve God’s word accurately, our Quran is superior, it’s better than the original. The original Bible would have supported what we say if there was a perfect copy. Those Jewish prophets couldn’t be trusted with the pen the Bible says. The real prophets were Muslims, Abraham wasn’t even Jewish.” And like them, you beg the world to believe in your invisible contradictory evidence too. You too are a cult, whose religion centers around mere men, and like Mormons, gods, gods you pretend to merely venerate. Like the Pharisees, the leaders of the Catholics withhold the knowledge of the keys to the kingdom of Heaven and give them false keys instead, your tradition, tradition that negates the word of God.
I’m chosen by grace, not by works, and the faith I have that saved me wasn’t of me, but of God. And remember: God’s will be done, on Earth, AS IT ALWAYS IS, in Heaven.
Yesterday I met an Asian girl named Kay, and couldn’t help but smile when I saw her. She was the most beautiful Asian girl I had ever seen, at least one of them, and I don’t consider many to be. I asked her race and she said she was Filipino, which I thought was strange, because I’ve never seen a Filipino girl who I thought was very beautiful, and never thought I would, and thought they were all brown-skinned, although I remember now that not all of them are while writing the last of this sentence.
She helped me to get a bank account too, to my surprise, which I didn’t think would be possible since my addresses were outdated and I had no proof of address. She was very friendly to me, but I didn’t have my hopes up to even date her, I was too exhausted to have any such hopes since certain people had over the days been harassing and exhausting me and wearing me down to the point so that while I was talking to her, I started to wan to fall asleep when most of our conversation was done. Unfortunately for me I found out she was married and even had a child, and a little while later wanted to fall asleep, not because I was depressed over what she said, but as I said, because certain people had worn me down over the days, from arguing with me and as usual, one of them, pestering me just before I would eat, and from making me jump through hoops repeatedly to do simple things.
On Oct. 22, which I think was about one or two weeks after I was robbed, as I mentioned in the post before the one before his one, Patience came to cheer me up and help me with moving some things and cleaning, the same Patience who said people who talked about religion were brainless, who I assumed didn’t believe in anything spiritual and was basically completely ignorant about religion, but that day I found out she had some experience with Hinduism, and told me she loved Jesus. But she wasn’t a Christian at all, and didn’t want to hear anything about it mostly, and got upset when I tried to give her evidence for the truth of the Bible, not even letting me finishing my first and short sentence about it. I wish she didn’t have a boyfriend, and wouldn’t stereotype the Bible as a boring and silly book, which I’m sure she does from her reaction to hearing more than a little about it.
Something funny happened about three days ago (the 27th). I went to a small yellow parrot with red feathers on its face, and it was about 4 PM, and it was sleeping, but it came out when I offered it some food in a lid, and as it stood on a perch, it, like a stereotypical cartoon segment of someone at a desk hitting their head on the desk, did the same thing on the lid, it just looked at the food without turning its head to the sides at all, and then four times it like a person hitting their head on a desk it hit its beak on the lid, with the food in it, very deliberately, at medium speed, and rhythmically. It was so bizarre because it did it hit its beak pretty hard on the lid, and didn’t open it’s beak at all, and I didn’t even see it yawn, and then it went back into its cage back into its sleeping hole, with it’s tail facing out. It was saying, “Ugh: I want to sleep and you got me to come out for this stuff again?“then it went back inside of it’s sleeping hole.
On the 21st, I met a person named Lawrence, and asked what his religion was, and he told me he was a Catholic, and then apologetically said, “It’s not even really a religion anymore…” and said something else at the end of his sentence which I can’t remember, but I think he was alluding to all the sinfulness in the church and terrible things that its priests were in modern times and recently being exposed for doing, which for those who pay attention to the news in the world, don’t need to hear the specifics about.
And about a month before that, I met another Catholic, who I noticed corrected me when I told him that I preached the Bible, by saying in response right away to me, “Discuss” as in “Don’t preach, discuss the Bible” and he didn’t mean to him merely, but anyone. A little while later I told him some recent terrible events I had gone through, and almost near the end of my story, he turned his head, got up, and left, and I don’t remember him saying, “I have to go.” Weeks later he all the sudden came up to me and said something almost exactly like, “I’d just like to say ‘sorry’ for walking out in the middle of your story,” and I used it as an opportunity to ask him why he said, “Discuss” to me, and he said it was because “You know, Catholics don’t” and I finished for him, saying, “Go out and preach,” and he replied, “Yeah.” But that didn’t explain why he said I must do as Catholics do, and when he didn’t know what my religion was. And by the way, the Bible says, that if no one preaches, how will anyone know about it (the Bible)? Catholics do go out and preach though, just not in the way that Calvinist Presbyterians and Baptists do, or Arminian ones, like handing out tracts or putting signs on themselves or going door to door. Catholics instead create religious centers, sometimes grand ones to attract attention to them, put up signs near them to let people know what the buildings are for and their priests inside mainly do the preaching and sometimes their Pope goes out in Public to do some preaching, and the Catholics also make Catholic schools, and now and then hand out a flier, often with a supposed image of Mary on it, or Jesus with a shining heart, or put up pictures of such or use postcards with such images, and they too also use tracts, but they are most likely to be found in their religious buildings or in jails or prisons, not left at bus stops or pay phones or other high traffic areas in public where the Presbyterians and Baptists will leave them. I also pointed out to him after asking him about his “Discuss” comment, that the Bible says to preach, and he said that he didn’t go with the Bible, but was a traditional Catholic, and I replied, “You mean you stick with tradition?” and he kind of winced and weakly nodded his head in agreement I think I remember, as if trying to find agreement with me, and then I said immediately, “Like ‘Sacred Tradition,’” and he replied, “Yeah” and I think I remember nodded his head in agreement again. After that I left him.
I really wish I had a picture of Kay :(
About twenty minutes ago, I was walking outside to work on my netbook, and a group of teens walked past me as I walked, and a female said to me, “Jesus loves you” and I thought I heard another one of them say something like, “You shouldn’t make fun of… [people?].” But as I walked past them it began to bother me and I was curious about them since I’d never seen them before. So I turned around to ask the one who spoke to me if she and her apparent boyfriend were Christians. They said yes, and I think the boyfriend then said, “Catholics” at that point, but they did acknowledge they were. And I asked if they had evidence that God loves everyone. And the boyfriend to my disappointment (but at the same time I was happy he new Scripture) quoted John 3:16. The girlfriend asked me what was wrong either before or after I tried to tell them gently that the Bible uses metaphors another one of their group, a female, with a beautiful face, came up to me, as the one who first spoke to me said, asked if I wanted to pray about something. But then a few seconds later said that she had to “jump her ex boyfriend” and replied, “jump” thinking of sex, but it occurred to me that wasn’t what she meant since she said “ex boyfriend”. would talk to me later. I then followed them and the rest of their group and soon her boyfriend began arguing with the ex, who turned out to be his brother, who was very different looking, as he was white, and the current boyfriend was plainly was Latin, though not the stereotypical looking type. I recorded some of the arguing which later turned to fighting. Stupid me I didn’t turn it on when I first started talking to them. I don’t plan on showing the video anyways, except a long time after, because the police around here are corrupt, and I want nothing to do with them unless it’s to sue them. But I tell this story because it adds to what I’ve previously said about Catholics. I’m not being direct in case they read this – don’t want to offend with sharp words. There’s a little more to the story, but not important.
I’m pretty tormented ever since I saw, some hours ago during the day, a very, very beautiful woman, with an ugly man, and she glanced at me intently twice, but I didn’t get a clear look at her face as I wanted to, since she was very beautiful even from a distance. I hope to see her again.
Here is more proof that Catholics are false Christians, from an article with a nutty liberal title (nutty because the authors make looking for a church sound like something unimportant and wasteful like shopping for necessary things at a mall, and as if there was never any oh so bad “polarization” in the world, and the authors’ pretentious use of the word “polarizing”):
How church shopping is polarizing the country
by Naomi Cahn and June Carbone, Special to CNN
The difference in viewpoints between traditionalists and modernists has dramatic effects on the culture wars, June Carbone and Naomi Cahn say.
Editor’s Note: June Carbone and Naomi Cahn are law professors and authors of the recent book “Red Families v. Blue Families: Legal Polarization and the Creation of Culture”.
A report this month on who gets abortions showed some surprising results: Catholic women are about as likely as any other woman to terminate a pregnancy. Then again, the striking thing about American Catholics is that they look almost exactly like the average American.
According to the Pew Research Center, for example, Catholics supported Obama in the 2008 election by 1 percentage point more than the general public. Even when it comes to abortion, which the Catholic Church strongly opposes, American Catholics are only 2 percent more likely than the general public to favor making it illegal. – More here
The authors say this is surprising (which is typical of narcissists to speak for everyone), but it’s not surprising to people who aren’t ignorant about religion and don’t fall back on making cheap shots in their hatred of studying the truth, like the authors, it’s not surprising to true Christians who know the difference between right and wrong, know what Catholics are like, and not surprising to Catholics who associate with many other Catholics, because they know how hypocritical they can be, and how big a surprising can it be when the Catholic cult is always having trouble with child-abusers and drunkard members and crime in general? Common sense.
No, wait, yah hear Christians!: YOU’RE POLARIZING THE WORLD! YOU SHOULD ALL JUST BE THE SAME AS NAOMI CAHN AND JUNE CARBONE! JUST ALL JUST BE COMMUNIST DARWINIST LIBERALS AND HAVE NO BELIEFS AND JUST STUDY STARS AND FOSSILS ALL DAY, NO WAIT, UH, HAVE SEX ALL DAY! LIKE, YEAH!
Consider the intensity of the commitment of these secret society members as “international defenders of the [Roman Catholic] Church.” It is hardly a secret that one of the most important American advances in “defending the [Roman Catholic] Church” by Catholic elitists was the creation of the Central Intelligence Agency [CIA]. The activities of the CIA go far beyond intelligence gathering of an international nature.
The CIA serves as an agency through which secret “assistance” to the Holy Mother [Roman Catholic] Church can be provided by secret American society members acting as her defenders:
During the CIA’s formative years, Protestants predominated… Somehow, however, [Roman] Catholics wrested control of the CIA’s covert-action section. It was no coincidence that some of the agency’s more grandiose operations were in [Roman] Catholic countries of Latin America and the [Roman] Catholic regime of South Vietnam.
For creating the Office of Strategic Services [OSS], the wartime predecessor to the CIA, and this special arrangement with the Vatican, General William “Wild Bill” Donovan was decorated in July 1944 by Pope Pius XII with the Grand Cross of the Order of Saint Sylvester, the oldest and most prestigious of papal knighthoods. This award has been given to only one hundred other men in history, who “by feat of arms or writing or outstanding deeds have spread the faith and have safeguarded and championed the [Roman Catholic] Church.”
Donovan did more to safeguard and champion the [Roman Catholic] Church than any other American, and he was rewarded for his services with the highest [Roman] Catholic award ever received by an American. No doubt, thousands of others have striven with their deeds for similar recognition. – American Democracy & the Vatican
The Argentine Dirty War
These are various articles forming a history of the Dirty War in Argentina which I, (Daniel Knight), have assembled on this page.
First, a brief overview of the Argentine Dirty War from globalsecurity.com:
Argentina Dirty War 1976 – 1983
The Dirty War, from 1976-1983, was a seven-year campaign by the Argentine government against suspected dissidents and subversives. Many people, both opponents of the government as well as innocent people, were “disappeared” in the middle of the night. They were taken to secret government detention centers where they were tortured and eventually killed. These people are known as “los desaparecidos” or “the disappeared.”
After the death of the controversial President Juan Peron in 1974, his wife and vice president, Isabel Peron, assumed power. However, she was not very strong politically and a military junta led a coup against her and removed her from office. This military junta maintained its grip on power by cracking down on anybody whom they believed was challenging their authority. Casualty counts from this war range from 10,000 to 30,000 people.
Although the military dictatorship carried out its war against suspected domestic subversives throughout its entire existence, it was ironically a foreign foe which brought the regime to an end. In the early 1980s, it became clear to both the world and the Argentine people that the government was behind the tens of thousands of kidnappings. The junta, facing increasing opposition over its human rights record, as well as mounting allegations of corruption, sought to allay domestic criticism by launching a successful campaign to regain Las Islas Malvinas (the Falkland Islands).
The Falkland Islands have been a source of contention between England, which administers them, and Argentina, which claims them, since 1820. The junta had thought that it could reclaim these islands relatively easily, that England wouldn’t mind their loss, and that the government would regain its popularity and control over its people. However, the government was wrong in its anticipations when 72 days after the invasion of the Islands, the British military won the war, having captured 9,800 Argentine POWs.
This unexpected loss was the final blow for the military regime, and in 1982, it restored basic civil liberties and retracted its ban on political parties. The Dirty War ended when Raul Alfonsin’s civilian government took control of the country on December 10, 1983.
Argentina remembers Dirty War
by James Reynolds
Thousands of people demonstrated in Buenos Aires on Saturday to mark the 25th anniversary of the coup which brought in seven years of military rule.
They were commemorating the estimated 30,000 people who disappeared under the military regime.
Several former members of the military junta have been stripped of their immunity and now face possible charges of kidnapping the babies of political prisoners.
The coup was the start of Argentina’s Dirty War – a war by any means against those opposed to the regime. – More here.
Former Argentine military ruler indicted
by Clare Marshall
Argentina’s former military leader, Jorge Videla, has been formally indicted over his alleged role in Plan Condor, an operation to hunt down and execute political opponents in the 1970s and 80s.
The case has been brought by several families who blamed General Videla for the death of their relatives in the covert operation.
The judge has ordered him to be put under preventative detention as an investigation continues.
In a 500-page report, a federal judge formally charged General Videla with being part of an aggravated illicit association to crush political rivals.
Plan Condor was a regional strategy, devised in the 1970s, by six Latin American countries, to quash opposition to military governments. – More here.
Argentina jails ‘dirty war’ medic
4/23/2005/10:06/GMT 11:06 UK
A survivor of the torture centre at the Navy School of Mechanics visits the building in Buenos Aires, Argentina
The Navy School of Mechanics became a notorious torture centre
An Argentine court has given a 10-year jail sentence to a doctor who helped steal babies from political prisoners held in a torture centre.
The offenses were committed during Argentina’s “dirty war” – the period of military rule between 1976 and 1983.
Jorge Luis Magnacco falsified the birth certificate of a baby born to a mother held in the centre, the court said.
The verdict said he had participated in the government’s plan of systematically eliminating left-wing opponents.
“It wasn’t enough for them to root out those who were considered a risk to the regime’s ideals… but they also eradicated those who in the future could harbour the same beliefs,” it said.
The adoptive mother and father of the child were also handed prison sentences by the court for adopting the child illegally.
The man, who worked for the Air Force, was given a seven-and-a-half year sentence and the woman a term of three years and one month. – More here.
Breaking the silence: the Catholic Church in Argentina and the ‘dirty war’
by Horacio Verbitsky
Among the horrors of Argentina’s military rule that “disappeared” up to 30,000 citizens from 1976-83, the complicity of senior figures in the Catholic hierarchy is becoming known thanks to the investigations of writer Horacio Verbitsky. openDemocracy publishes an exclusive extract from his new book, The Silence.
Argentina between 1976 and 1983 was wracked by a “dirty war” in which successive military regimes hunted down, tortured and “disappeared” tens of thousands of citizens. The process had begun when Argentina’s already febrile politics started to split open in the mid-1970s. The military seized power in a coup from Isabelita Peron’s government, in the wake of an armed insurgency by Montoneros guerrillas.
The dictatorship that followed consigned thousands of Argentineans into military detention. Most were tortured; a few were released, many were eventually murdered. These “disappeared” numbered in all around 30,000.
In 1979, the Inter-American Human Rights Commission visited Argentina and inspected the most notorious detention centre, the Navy Mechanical School in Buenos Aires. They found no prisoners. As Horacio Verbitsky reveals in this extract from his extraordinary book, the prisoners had been dispersed, some of them to El Silencio, an island property that had belonged to an official of the Catholic archbishop of Buenos Aires.
The Catholic church’s complicity in torture and murder in Argentina should be no surprise; it had, after all, long precedents in extreme doctrines that came to Argentina (and elsewhere in Latin America) from the far right in France. But many details of Horacio Verbitsky’s account are revelatory, and his researches are a vital contribution to continuing efforts in Argentina to reach a full historical, legal and moral accounting for the violations of the “dirty war” years.
“Transfer” was a word the prisoners feared, a word they all wanted to banish from their thoughts.
There were three weeks to the end of winter. The nights were still cold, but the sunshine brought a feeling of warmth returning, a good sign after all the hard months. They had been told they would be away until the end of the month. Some of them had told their families they would not be able to call or see them for several weeks. They had never been outside the Navy Mechanical School as a group before, and this novelty was disturbing. In the attic and basement of the officers’ mess that they were leaving, they had had enough time to get close. The links between them were recent but intense, cemented by the extreme situation they had shared, the outcome of which was still unclear.
Horacio Verbitsky’s new book “The Silence” has been longlisted for the 2005 Ulysses award for literary reportage
This time they were not called out by name and they were not lined up in the white-tiled corridor leading to the sickroom where they had been vaccinated. When the last of them climbed on board the bus, the officers’ mess was left empty to make room for a refurbishment. The aim was to deceive the members of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission, who were arriving with makeshift but accurate drawings of the installations.
The bathroom was to be completely altered, a marble worktop, stainless-steel sinks and a wall-to-wall mirror were to be fitted to make the place look less forbidding. Partitions were to be knocked down, and the metal rings in the floor removed. The staircase between the basement and the attic was to be closed off.
The bus headed north, parallel to the River Plate. With their casual clothes and sports bags they might have seemed like so many similar groups of light-hearted young men and women out on an excursion. They were well aware of the deceit and disguise.
They cannot have taken more than half an hour to reach the landing-stage. The guards identified the vehicle and let them through. Other prisoners were brought to the same spot by car, blindfolded.
They were put on board a coastguard launch, made of wood like the boats that carry passengers between all the islands, but with the seats removed. They were made to lie on the floor in the midst of bags, crates of food, radio equipment and weapons. The launch headed up the River Tuyú-Paré towards the Chaña-Miní.
Some of the prisoners estimate the journey took little more than half an hour; others, more accurately, say an hour and a half. In the 19th century, the liberal bourgeoisie in Argentina had called this area the Tigre, in honour of the Tigris region in Mesopotamia. Only the people who live on the islands of the delta can distinguish all the 350 rivers, streams and channels into which they are divided. A century and a half ago, Domingo Faustino Sarmiento described the shape of these islands as “the most capricious imaginable”, an area where “the surface is an illusion: not everything is land that appears to be so, and there is no way of knowing beforehand what is of any use.”
There was nothing out of the ordinary about the dock they tied up at; nor about the house, which they walked towards across worn wooden planks and a muddy path. The building must have been around eighty years old. It was the same as many others in the Paraná delta, with a pitched corrugated iron roof, floors, walls and partitions made of wood, and raised on stilts to protect it from the frequent floods. The eight large rooms must have covered an area of a little less than 200 square metres. Radio equipment was set up in one of the rooms. There was an electric generator and lots of tools. A gas water-heater supplied the bathroom and the kitchen, and there were four water tanks for drinking water.
A stand of poplars, another of willows, and a third of birches filled the cultivated part of the island. The rest needed clearing. A dense screen of thorn bushes grew wild everywhere, making it impossible to penetrate more than 500 metres inland from the river.
Another, smaller group made the same journey in the cold of early morning. They were frightened rather than excited. Handcuffed and blindfolded, some of them were taken in a large van, others were put into a lorry with a thick green canvas awning. When they reached the landing-stage, they heard the barking of dogs and the rattle of weapons. They were put into an open launch and covered with a canvas. If any of them moved they were beaten.
These prisoners were put into a second building, smaller and rougher than the first. Its external walls were made of corrugated iron, and the gap between them and the wooden stilts had been filled in to accommodate them. Each night one or two of them were taken to the big house for a bath, along dark earthen paths, their way lit by torches. Despite the primitiveness of the conditions, these prisoners were happy that they were left on their own in this house, where the guards refused to sleep. This was the first time they were able to talk freely to each other, and thanks to this, they discovered that one of them was missing.
The last prisoner to arrive was “The Old Lady”, so called because she was 52 years old. Unlike the others, she was brought on her own. When she reached the island she read on the wooden sign that it was called El Silencio.
This was where the last men and women kidnapped by the Navy Mechanics School Task Force spent a month in September 1979.
The Catholic City
Cardinal Antonio Caggiano and his secretary Bishop Emilio Grasselli worked together in the two decades when Argentina’s defining tragedy was prepared. The cardinal played an important role in those preparations.
Elements of the Catholic church elsewhere had long taken an interest in “counter-terrorism”. In 1958, an advance party of La Cité Catholique arrived in Argentina. This was an offshoot of the French Catholic monarchist movement known as L’Action Française, created by in 1889 by Charles Maurras, the brilliant French philosopher and later apologist for Fascism. La Cité Catholique brought a doctrine of counter-revolutionary warfare and torture, justified as part of Thomist dogmatism.
Jean Ousset, Maurras’s private secretary, established La Cité Catholique in 1946. The idea originated in the French armed forces. In his book Le Marxisme-leninisme, Ousset states that this enemy can only be successfully combated by a “profound faith, an unlimited obedience to the Holy Father, and a thorough knowledge of the Church’s doctrines”.
Charles Lacheroy, a member of La Cité Catholique, was the first person to reflect on the ideological and technical reasons behind the defeat of the French colonial army in Indochina in 1954. Another member, Roger Trinquier, theorised on the use of torture in Modern Warfare, a bible for its followers.
Another of Ousset’s recruits was the chief French expert in psychological warfare – Colonel Jean Gardes. Between them they developed a new concept, that of subversion. This conceived a protean, quintessential enemy who, rather than being defined by his actions, was seen as a force trying to subvert Christian order, natural law, or the Creator’s plan. For this reason, Ousset states that “the revolutionary apparatus is ideological before it is political, and political before it is military”. This explains the wide range of enemies he sought to define.
When the torture that French paratroopers used in Algeria during the bloody war of 1954-62 aroused protests and debate, French military chaplains calmed the officers’ troubled consciences. One of them, Louis Delarue, wrote a text that was distributed to all units:
“If, in the general interest, the law allows a murderer to be killed, why should it be seen as monstrous to submit a delinquent who has been recognised as such and is therefore liable to be put to death, to an interrogation which might be painful, but whose only object is, thanks to the revelations he may make about his accomplices and leaders, to protect the innocent? Exceptional circumstances call for exceptional measures”.
As success in the Algerian war gradually slipped away from the crusaders, Ousset decided to create branches of La Cité Catholique in other parts of the world. The first of these was in Buenos Aires in 1958. Its members had been part of the clandestine Organisation of a Secret Army (OAS), which brought terror to Paris itself and attempted to assassinate General Charles de Gaulle, whom they accused of treason for withdrawing French forces from Algeria and thus facilitating its independence from French rule.
Charles de Gaulle succeeded in destroying the OAS and had several of his former military colleagues shot. The OAS chaplain, Georges Grasset, organised the flight of many members of the organisation along a route which led from Paris to Madrid and finally to Buenos Aires. Grasset himself arrived in 1962 to take charge of the Argentine branch.
Horacio Verbitsky is a leading Argentinean investigative journalist. He was given an International Press Freedom Award by the Committee to Protect Journalists in 2001. Among his books are The Flight: Confessions of an Argentine Dirty Warrior (New Press, 2005) and The Silence: from Paulo VI to Bergoglio, the secret links between the Church and the Navy Mechanics School (Buenos Aires, Editorial Sudamericana, 2005), which uncovers the assistance and protection that the Catholic Church gave to Argentina’s brutal military dictatorship.
Horacio Verbitsky’s work is translated into English by Nicholas Caistor
Another founder of the OAS describes Grasset as “a true soldier-monk, a virulent anti-communist, who became the spiritual guide of the OAS. Thanks to him and the Cité Catholique network, of which he was one of the mainstays, several of the OAS leaders managed to find refuge abroad, particularly in Argentina”.
Jean Gardes reached Argentina in 1963. Forty years later, his daughter Florence showed the French journalist Marie-Monique Robin the notes her father had made. They show that, in March 1963, a naval lieutenant commander called Roussillon offered Gardes a deal: he would arrange Argentine government protection so that Gardes could settle in Neuquén; in exchange, he would deliver a series of lectures in the Navy Mechanics School on the counter-subversive techniques developed in France’s colonial wars.
Gardes, who soon established a small factory making paté de foie in Neuquén, did not ask to be paid or to have a fixed post, but only wanted to be an adviser. Gardes’ notes, as conserved by his daughter, coincide with those of the file on naval officer Federico Lucas Roussillon.
In 1955, the then Lieutenant Roussillon took part in the Catholic nationalist movement led by Eduardo Lonardi, which overthrew President Juan Domingo Perón. One of Lonardi’s general staff was Major Juan Francisco Guevara, who proposed that the password the conspirators should use should be: “God is Just”. By 1963 Roussillon was a member of the Naval Intelligence Service; he retired with the rank of captain in 1979, as Cardinal Caggiano was approaching the end of his life.
Soon after Gardes met Roussillon, the cadets at the Navy Mechanics School were also introduced to the world of counter-revolutionary warfare. In one of their courses they were shown the film The Battle of Algiers, an Italian-Algerian co-production made by the communist director Gillo Pontecorvo with the intention of exposing the methods used in Algeria by the French colonial army.
The film was subsequently used in counter-insurgency classes in Argentina and the United States to teach those same methods. The naval chaplain introduced the film and added a commentary from the religious point of view. Thirty-five years later, two of the cadets described the experience to Marie-Monique Robin:
Did the chaplain justify the methods used in The Battle of Algiers?
Anibal Acosta: Absolutely.
Julio César Urien: Yes. Torture was seen not as a moral problem but as a weapon.
Anibal Acosta: Part of the Catholic hierarchy supported this kind of practice. They showed us that film to prepare us for a kind of war very different from the regular war we had entered the Navy School for. They were preparing us for police missions against the civilian population, who became our new enemy.
The first edition of Le Marxisme-leninisme to be published outside France appeared in Buenos Aires on February [6,] 1961, translated and annotated by Juan Francisco Guevara (now a colonel) and with a prologue written by Cardinal Caggiano, who thanks the “men of La ciudad catolica of Argentina” for publishing Ousset’s book.
Marxism, continues Caggiano, is born of the negation of Christ and his Church, “put into practice by the Revolution”. He affirms that Ousset’s book is a training tool for the “fight to the death” to which “all the peoples of the western world, America and those in Asia who are still resisting, are in grave, imminent danger of falling victim”.
According to Caggiano, it is necessary to “prepare for the decisive battle” even though the enemies have not yet “taken up arms”. As often happens in a continent that imports ideas, the doctrine of annihilation preceded that of the revolutionary uprising. In order to reinforce his idea of a holy war, Caggiano compared this vigil to the one that preceded the 1571 battle of Lepanto “to save Europe from domination by the Turk”. The book includes a list of the papal bulls condemning communism; they were the cross which kept Satan at bay.
In October 1961, Caggiano and the then president of Argentina, Arturo Frondizi inaugurated the first course on counter-revolutionary warfare in the Higher Military College. One of the tasks set in the course was to explain this quotation from the bishop of Verden, Dietrick von Nieken in 1411:
“When the existence of the Church is threatened, it is no longer bound by the commandments of morality. When unity is the aim, all means are justified: deceit, treachery, violence, usury, prison and death. Because order serves the good of the community, and the individual has to be sacrificed for the common good.”
- More here.
Spain court backs Argentine trial
7/22/2005/18:43 GMT/19:43 UK
Spain’s Supreme Court has ruled that the government must ask Argentina to extradite 39 former military officers for alleged human rights violations.
It said the refusal by Spain’s former conservative government to seek the extradition of the officers and also one civilian had been against the law.
Among the men is Jorge Videla – one of the heads of the military council that ruled Argentina between 1976 and 1983.
Spanish law allows trials for crimes against humanity committed abroad. – More here.
Bitter Memories of a ‘Dirty War’
by Michael Fox
In 1976, in search of his 16-year-old daughter, Miguel Angel Isasa walks to Police Precinct Number One in the small Argentine town of Santa Fe and knocks on the door. It is answered by a man in a uniform who tells him she’s not there. Isasa demands to see the register of prisoners, but her name is not listed. And although he has reason to believe his daughter is in custody, there is nothing he can do. In fact, Patricia Isasa is inside, locked in an empty room, hooded and shackled, awaiting her turn to be beaten, raped and subjected to electric shock, another victim of Argentina’s “dirty war.”
Gareth Porter: The Bush Administration cites a 1994 bombing in Argentina to tar Iran as a sponsor of global terror. But a fresh probe finds no evidence of an Iran connection.
Robert Scheer: The CIA’s role in his assassination managed to turn a failed–and flawed–guerrilla fighter into an enduring symbol of resistance to oppression.
Naomi Klein & Avi Lewis: Almost entirely under the media radar, unemployed workers here are taking over bankrupt businesses and reopening them under democratic management.
Michael Fox: The current debate in the United States over the use of torture in the interrogation of terror suspects has prompted Patricia Isasa, a teenage torture victim in Argentina’s “dirty war,” to speak out against the School of the Americas, a longtime training ground for torture techniques.
Nearly thirty years later, Patricia Isasa stares out at the hundreds of activists gathered on November 19 at the Civic Center Ballroom in Columbus, Georgia, recalling her experiences as a torture victim.
“We’re here because we want to stop torture everywhere,” she says. “It’s incredible, but how is it possible that throughout all of Latin America it’s the same torture and it’s the same in Iraq? It’s because the School of the Americas is still here and they haven’t changed the manual. They haven’t changed their policy.”
Listening to Isasa is a cross-section of the 15,000 priests, nuns, torture survivors, students and other activists who have traveled to nearby Fort Benning for the annual weekend vigil at the controversial School of the Americas, whose graduates are said to be responsible for torture, killings and death-squad activity across Central and South America. This year’s protest was marked by increasing concern over the use of torture tactics on terrorism suspects by CIA and US military operatives. – More here.
Priest’s Life Sentence Draws Widespread Praise
by Marcela Valente
BUENOS AIRES – The life sentence handed down to former police chaplain Christian Von Wernich, a symbol of the Argentine Catholic Church’s complicity with the 1976-1983 military dictatorship, was described Wednesday by Argentine President Nestor Kirchner as “a good example for the world.”
“There are still certain factions that have some power…but the verdict was an achievement in the administration of justice and is a great defeat for those sectors,” said Kirchner.
The spokesman for Argentina’s bishops’ conference, Father Jorge Oesterheld, said Wednesday that “we Catholics hope that Von Wernich will repent and ask for forgiveness.”
After a three month trial in which more than 60 witnesses testified, a court in La Plata, the capital of the province of Buenos Aires, found the 69-year-old priest guilty late Tuesday of being an accomplice to murder, torture and kidnapping.
Survivors, the families of victims and members of human rights groups burst out in applause and cheers when Judge Carlos Rozanski, who presided over the court, described Von Wernich’s crimes as “crimes against humanity committed within the context of the genocide that took place between 1976 and 1983.”
Human rights groups estimate that some 30,000 people were forcibly disappeared during the seven-year dictatorship.
The trial, which took place three decades after the crimes in question were committed, was the first against a clergyman accused of genocide, and exposed the Church hierarchy’s support for the regime’s “dirty war” against leftists, trade unionists and others deemed “subversive.”
Although many priests, nuns, Catholic lay workers and even bishops were among the regime’s victims, the Church hierarchy had close ties to the dictatorship.
Tati Almeyda, a member of the Mothers of Plaza de Mayo Founding Line, celebrated the verdict and said it also “brought to justice a Church that was an accomplice, which 30 years on has not yet acknowledged the atrocities committed.”
“We did not think we would live to see this,” she added, visibly moved.
Shortly after the ruling was handed down, the Argentine bishops’ conference said it was “pained by the participation of a priest in these extremely grave crimes, according to the sentence.”
“We believe that the steps taken by the justice system in clarifying these events must serve to renew the efforts of all citizens towards reconciliation, and are a call to distance ourselves not only from impunity but from hatred and rancour as well,” said the statement, signed by the president of the bishops’ conference, Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio of Buenos Aires.
He also said that any Catholic who participated in the “dirty war” “did so on his own responsibility, erring and sinning gravely against God, against mankind, and against his own conscience.”
Von Wernich’s superior, Bishop Martín Elizalde, who has the responsibility to decide whether or not to defrock the priest, merely stated Wednesday that “we are praying for him, for God to assist him and to grant him the necessary grace to comprehend and repair the damages caused.”
The statement, which made no mention of sanctions for the priest, apologised for the fact that “a priest, by action or omission, was so far from the requirements of the mission commended to him.”
Von Wernich’s defence attorneys had argued that there was “more doubt than certainty” as to his shared responsibility in human rights violations.
The priest, meanwhile, gave vague testimony that evaded the underlying question of his involvement. He said “a false witness is the devil, impregnated with malice,” and that “if we want to arrive at the truth, we must do so in peace.”
As chaplain for the notorious Buenos Aires provincial police, headed by then police chief Ramón Camps, Von Wernich held the rank of inspector and frequently visited the regime’s secret torture camps, encouraging political prisoners to provide information in order to avoid being tortured.
One of his victims was journalist Jacobo Timerman, the founder of the newspaper La Opinión, which was shut down by the dictatorship. His son, Argentina’s current consul in New York, Héctor Timerman, testified that his father remembered seeing the priest standing next to Camps while he was being tortured.
The former chaplain was also accused as an accomplice in the murders of seven members of the Peronist guerrilla organisation Montoneros, which was active in the 1970s. According to several witnesses, Von Wernich asked the victims’ families for money in exchange for a promise that he would get their loved ones out of the country. Families of at least three victims said they gave him 1,500 dollars.
But police officer Julio Emmed told the National Commission on the Disappearance of Persons in 1984 that the chaplain personally witnessed the murder of three of the seven victims.
Lawyer Marta Vedio with the Permanent Assembly for Human Rights told IPS that she was pleased with the verdict. “We were confident that the court would find Von Wernich guilty of the seven murders” for which he was convicted, she said.
In the trial, Vedio represented Mercedes Molina, the daughter of Ricardo Molina and Liliana Galarza. Her father, who had been held in the provincial police investigation unit, one of the clandestine prisons visited by Von Wernich, testified in the trial.
When Galarza was abducted, she was four months pregnant. She gave birth to Mercedes in captivity in 1976. The baby was baptised by Von Wernich, as he himself admitted and as the baptism certificate shows. She was then handed over to her grandparents.
Survivor Luis Velazco testified during the trial that when one desperate torture victim begged the priest “Father, please, I don’t want to die,” Von Wernich responded “Son, the lives of the men who are here depend on the will of God and the cooperation that you can offer. If you want to stay alive, you know what you have to do.”
Velazco also said the priest told other torture victims that “pain is a way of redeeming the evil within oneself.”
Expert witnesses included 1980 Nobel Peace Prize-winner Adolfo Pérez Esquivel and former Jesuit priest Ruben Dri, a theologian and philosopher who was one of the founders of the Third World Priests Movement in the late 1960s.
Pérez Esquivel said that on various occasions he notified the Church leadership of the atrocities that were being committed during the dictatorship, but said he never received any response.
“With honourable exceptions, the Church was the accomplice of the military,” he told IPS.
In his book “The Silence”, Argentine journalist Horacio Verbitsky revealed that in 1976, two months after the coup, the Argentine bishops’ conference met to deliberate, and a small group of bishops said they were aware of cases of kidnapping, torture and murder.
But when a vote was held, only 19 bishops voted in favour of publicly speaking out against the human rights crimes while 38 opted for silence.
Verbitsky, who has written other books on the ties between the Catholic Church and the regime, argued that unlike in other countries of Latin America, the Church in Argentina has traditionally identified itself with the elites. – More here.
Argentine Dirty War Victims Cautiously Embrace Trials, Hope for More
by Sam Ferguson
Buenos Aires, Argentina – In July 1977, when Ana Maria Careaga was just sixteen years old, she was kidnapped off a major intersection in Buenos Aires by forces from Argentina’s last dictatorship. She was taken to what she later found out was “Club Atletico,” a torture center and secret prison in a federal police station just blocks from the bustling downtown. According to court documents, for three and a half months, she was savagely tortured – beaten, hung by her wrists and ankles, and electrocuted. According to Careaga’s testimony in court documents, her guards continued to beat her even after she told them she was pregnant.
On Tuesday, November 24, more than 33 years after the dictatorship took power and forcibly disappeared between 9,000 and 30,000 citizens like Careaga in Argentina’s “Dirty War,” 15 defendants accused of operating the Atletico and two other secret prisons appeared in court.
The defendants, mostly retired police officials, have been charged on an array of counts against 181 victims, including kidnapping, torture and murder. All of the crimes took place between 1976 and 1979, the most repressive period during the dictatorship’s rule, which lasted until 1983.
The Atletico case is the latest in a wave of actions against the last dictatorship since Argentina’s Congress repealed a series of amnesty laws in 2003. The laws had shielded officials of the dictatorship from prosecution. Since the amnesty laws were repealed, however, it has taken prosecutors and judges years to move forward with cases, as they stall in the pretrial phase.
Though her day in court has finally come, Careaga has mixed emotions. Twenty six years after the return of democracy, she says “now we can have justice.” But, she is frustrated that the defendants have not been charged for the crimes committed against all their suspected victims. “There are a lot of people who were kidnapped, but they aren’t judging … these repressors [for these crimes].” – More here.
Argentine ‘Dirty War’ defendants on trial
Argentina puts more than a dozen former generals and admirals on trial over human rights abuses during the country’s dictatorship between 1976 and 1983.
The 15 septuagenarian defendants, standing trial before a three-judge panel, were officers and policemen who ran clandestine torture centers known as the Athletic Club, the Bank and Olimpo, the Washington Post said on Monday.
The case is the latest in a string of proceedings seeking to deliver justice for the estimated 30,000 people killed by state security services during the “Dirty War,” including some who were thrown from airplanes after being tortured and sedated.
Since 2005, Argentine prosecutors have so far managed to convict 60 defendants over violation of human rights through ordinary penal law and the criminal courts, charging 627 more former military officers, policemen and officials while a total of 325 cases are open nationwide.
In the 1980s, a “full-stop” law ended investigations and a “due obedience” law absolved those who said they were following the orders of superiors.
In the 1990s, President Carlos Menem pardoned those who had been convicted. But in 2005, Argentina’s Supreme Court withdrew the amnesties and prosecutions resumed.
Among the defendants on trial now are some of the dictatorship’s most notorious figures, including former Gen. Jorge Rafael Videla, who led the junta that governed after a 1976 coup, and Argentina’s last dictator, Reynaldo Bignone. There is also Alfredo Astiz, nicknamed “Blond Angel of Death.”
More trials are due next year for those charged with involvement in “Operation Condor,” in which dictatorships across much of South America cooperated in hunting down and killing leftists.
The courts have requested declassified US cables that detail what the United States knew about Argentine military operations in the war against leftist guerrilla groups.
Argentina’s ambassador to Washington, Hector Timerman, has been reportedly petitioning the CIA and other agencies to open their files on Argentina. – Source
Argentina reveals secrets of ‘dirty war’
Buenos Aires – Argentina has disclosed the secrets of the ‘dirty war’ waged against the left by the country’s military regime 1976-83.
The secret files of Battalion 601, described as the ‘brain’ that coordinated killings, kidnappings and other abuses, contains the identities of both military and civilian personnel who played a role in the repression.
The declassification of the documents began with an order from Argentine President Cristina Fernandez Jan 1.
The documents presented before the federal Judge Ariel Lijo for review contain data on 3,952 civilians and 345 army personnel who worked for Battalion 601, said Ramon Torres Molina, director of the National Archive of Memory.
The battalion’s civilian operatives included everyone from college professors to people who worked as porters, concierges and maintenance men at apartment buildings.
They were used to collect information and to infiltrate guerrilla groups and human rights organisations, with those assigned to infiltration duties given aliases with initials matching those of their real names.
The civilian agents were classified by grades corresponding to military ranks and the most proficient could aspire to the equivalent of colonel.
Torres, who refused to divulge any names until Judge Lijo finishes reviewing the documents, said the intelligence structure was created in the early 1970s and that it survived until 2000, when Battalion 601 was disbanded and its remaining 500 or so civilian operatives dismissed.
Some former commanders of the unit have died and others have been criminally charged, but many military and civilian veterans of the unit are at large, the archive director said.
The archive continues to thumb through more than 4 million digitised pages and thousands of dossiers in search of information about the crimes of a regime that left more than 30,000 ‘disappeared’. – Source
Orphaned in Argentina’s dirty war, man is torn between two families
by Juan Forero
BUENOS AIRES — Alejandro Rei refused to accept the truth, even after the man he thought was his father pulled the car over one night and told him he had been adopted.
“You are the son of the disappeared,” Victor Rei told him, his eyes tearing up.
Alejandro did not know it then, but Victor would have had intimate knowledge: He had been a military intelligence officer, a cog in a ferocious military machine that in the 1970s smashed two rebel groups in Argentina by kidnapping and torturing suspected guerrillas and dissidents. The victims were shot and buried in unmarked graves, or sedated and hurled alive from airplanes over the south Atlantic.
In the mournful lexicon of Latin American dictatorship, they were the “disappeared.” And on that night in 2004, Alejandro was hearing that his real parents had been victims of the military junta during the “dirty war.”
For nearly five years, though, Alejandro would be torn between recognizing the fate of his real parents and his loyalty to the people who raised him.
Victor’s revelation was the beginning of a long, tortuous process that would include police raids, DNA tests, a trial that put the father Alejandro had known behind bars and, finally, a rocky reunion with the biological family that had wanted him back since 1977. – More here with slides.
Unearthing mysteries of Argentina’s ‘Dirty War’
by Brian Byrnes
12/17/2009/9:50 A.M. EST
Buenos Aires, Argentina (CNN) — Laura Feldman was kidnapped by the Argentine military on February 18, 1978. The 18-year-old was never seen by her family again, a victim of the ruthless regime that ruled Argentina from 1976 to 1983. For 31 years, her sister Ana searched for answers — and her remains.
“Laura was politically active. She was young and had her ideals. But she didn’t deserve to die,” says Ana, 51.
In 2004, bones believed to be Laura’s were found in a mass grave in a cemetery outside Buenos Aires. After a series of genetic tests confirmed her identity, Ana finally received her sister’s bones in April 2009.
“I can now speak in the past tense: my sister was executed,” says Ana. “And now that I have her remains, I can mourn her — something her murderers tried to deny me,” she says.
Ana has her sister’s remains today because of the efforts of the Argentine Forensic Anthropology Team — known by its Spanish acronym as EAAF — a non-profit, NGO based in Buenos Aires that uses science to solve the mysteries of Argentina’s “Dirty War,” a period during which at least 13,000, and perhaps as many as 30,000 people, were “disappeared.”
The “Dirty War” is still very much alive in Argentines’ collective conscience. Immunity laws granted to former military leaders were overturned in recent years, and now many are standing trial for human rights violations, including the country’s last military dictator, former Gen. Reynaldo Bignone, 81, who went on trial this month along with five others on torture charges. – More here with video.
Argentina’s Dirty War Still Haunts Youngest Victims
by Juan Forero
From 1976 to 1983, a vicious military dictatorship ruled Argentina. Among its crimes: taking hundreds of babies from their biological parents — political prisoners who then “disappeared.” A group of determined grandmothers has been seeking to identify these stolen orphans.
Alejandro Rei’s life was one of middle-class comforts in a leafy suburb of Buenos Aires. There were cookouts, rugby games, a job running a gas station and what seemed like a normal family life shared with his doting parents, Victor Rei and Alicia Arteach.
More World News The truth, though, came barreling through the door, thanks to a group of determined grandmothers in Argentina. They have searched for the babies their children delivered while held as political prisoners of the country’s 1970s-era military dictatorship.
In the depravity that marked the period, the young mothers were killed after giving birth and the babies were handed over to military families to raise.
The man Alejandro believed to be his biological father, Victor Rei, had been a cog in the ferocious military machine that ran Argentina back then, an intelligence officer whose job had been to root out subversives in Argentine society.
DNA evidence would reveal that Alejandro’s birth mother was a blond-haired, oval-eyed beauty named Liliana Fontana.
The Truth Revealed
In recent years, investigators probing war crimes committed by the 1976-1983 military dictatorship determined that Fontana and her partner, Pedro Sandoval, had been detained, tortured and then killed, though their bodies have never been found.
Investigators believed that Fontana had left behind the baby she had been carrying when she was first arrested in mid-1977. That baby was given to Victor Rei and his wife during a night-time rendezvous in early 1978. They named the boy Alejandro.
In March 2004, the man Alejandro thought was his father became the target of a government investigation. The son said he tried to shut out the past. He also vowed to help defend the parents he had always known.
His father told him that they had taken him into their care to save him from certain death. He told Alejandro that the military had orders to kill the babies of those who had been imprisoned.
“I weighed everything that I had lived in my 26 years,” Alejandro told NPR in a recent interview. “I thought what I had received was a real love, a real affection, and so I was determined that I would defend them as much as I could.”
Torn Between Two Families
At the same time, an organization called the Grandmothers of the Plaza de Mayo, a human rights group made up of women who had lost their adult children to the dictatorship, was prodding judicial authorities to determine who had been Alejandro’s real mother.
The group, formed in the midst of the military junta, gets anonymous tips about young people believed to be the children of those who vanished while in military detention. They then use investigators and court orders to ferret out the truth.
In Alejandro’s case, they had collected his birth certificate and saw that it had been signed by a doctor who had frequently put his name on false birth certificates, helping several military families adopt babies taken from doomed mothers.
By May 2004, authorities had enough evidence to charge Victor Rei with kidnapping and falsifying documents. He was locked up in Campo de Mayo, which coincidentally had been the military base where investigators believe Fontana had probably given birth.
In 2006, using a court order, the police raided Alejandro’s apartment and came away with his comb, toothbrush and other personal belongings. On July 14 of that year, they announced that the DNA gleaned from those belongings showed that he was the biological son of Fontana and Sandoval.
Weeks later, in a judge’s courtroom, Rei met his grandparents and other relatives. But recalling the saga, he said that he felt guilt — guilt that Victor Rei and Alicia Arteach were facing jail time — and annoyance that his life had been turned upside down.
“I began to carry a weight called guilt, and I blamed myself for all this,” said Alejandro, now 32.
For the Grandmothers of the Plaza de Mayo, and others working to uncover the crimes of the past, the case has been important. More than 500 babies were stolen during the dictatorship and 400 remain unaccounted for.
Alan Iud, a lawyer for the Grandmothers group, says the Rei case is one of many that shows that the theft of babies was systematic.
“For me, it’s impossible to imagine something more evil than this,” Iud said.
Time Is Running Out
In recent years, because of the Grandmothers group, 100 babies — now adults in their early 30s — have been found. The search continues, and the Grandmothers group has help, among them President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner, whose government has thrown its support behind the effort to uncover the crimes of the past.
The Grandmothers organization also has a powerful tool: a new law that speeds up the identification process by forcing young adults thought to be the children of the disappeared to provide DNA samples.
Driving the effort is an urgent reality: the grandmothers are dying off.
“We do not have time to keep waiting, because we are all very old,” said Estela Barnes de Carlotto, 82. She is president of the Grandmothers of the Plaza de Mayo and is searching for her daughter’s son. “There are grandmothers who are 90 or older who have not yet found their grandchildren.” – More here.
Lecture, photographs examine Argentina’s ‘Dirty War’
Sixty-three pictures, nine photographers, seven years of state-sponsored violence and one Regents’ Professor will tell the story of Argentina’s “Dirty War,” which will conclude the spring 2010 Humanities Lecture Series. …
The junta targeted women, children, homosexuals, Jews, students, activists and trade unionists as domestic subversives and were illegally arrested, incarcerated, killed and dumped in unmarked graves. Others were pushed out of planes (“death flights”) into the Río de la Plata or Atlantic Ocean to drown. Casualty counts from this war range from 10,000 to 30,000 people. – More here.
Part 2: Operation Condor.
Many Freemasons are apart of the Catholic Church’s priesthood despite public condemnation of Freemasonry by the Popes.
More on Argentina:
Post link: http://adriannecurry.tk
An example of the kind of shallow lowlife followers Adrianne Curry attracts
(I edited out a few superfluous words I made)
Incredibly, the deeply evil, ignorant, sociopath, narcissist and hypocrite, Adrianne Curry, played Miss Morals against PETA, babbling about scare tactics, a short while after she openly encouraged the world to oppose Christians by using sexually filthy language, having no concern for any children who might hear what she said, and taking advantage of true Christians, knowing that they were peaceful and wouldn’t physically attack her for her hate speech, which was crude and childish: She relegated the greatest man of peace, the Son of God, who spread peace everywhere so that evil morons on their way to Hell would have a chance to have eternal peace, and who suffered unimaginable pain to do so, even dying a humiliating death, a death reserved for criminals, to accomplish this, she made him out to be a dumb nobody who enjoys dumb extremely crude, childish, unfunny jokes.
The video description of that video from the liberal uploaders “hollyscoop.com”/”HollyscoopTV”:
September 20, 2007
VH1′s My Fair Brady star Adrianne Curry talks about Kathy Griffin’s controversial speech and her famous quote “Jesus Can Suck It”. Hilarious interview at the 59th annual Emmy awards TV Guide after party.
As my journal shows, and this article, it’s the anti-Christians that are the hateful ones; they are the ones who promote hate-speech and violence with arrogant, callous, blasphemy like this Yet they want all the Christians in jail (notice that not even after nearly 3 years and 71,677 views do these “moral” liberals, liberals who pushed for hate-speech laws, say anything to Google/Youtube’s to have the video removed or at least marked as sexually explicit. And as you can see below the Catholics approved of this blasphemy, just as the Bible says they would do):
Latest comments on this video, showing what the majority of liberals young Catholics in this world are like (and how easy it is for Christians to refute them):
thetooltornado (18 hours ago):
Oh cry about it Jesus freaks. Oh waaaah she made a Jesus joke, get the fuck over it. Hypersensitivity is a freakin shame, nobody can take a joke anymore.
“Oh cry about it Jesus freaks.”
Why are you crying that we won’t act however you want us to, control freak? Blind, hypocrite narcissist much?
“Oh waaaah she made a Jesus joke,”
No[:] she blasphemed using sexual language in a corrupt way, against the Creator of the universe, who is morally perfect, allowed himself to be tortured and executed for millions of hateful people like you giving them eternal life, who has patiently waited for evil morons like you to stop breaking his sacred laws which have brought peace to the world even to sick morons like you who have no conscience or care to know the truth.
“Hypersensitivity is a freakin shame”
Cuz the moron who thinks because he used the cliche “nobody can take a joke anymore”? You’re so ignorant and dumb that you think making a joke in smugness, with an arrogant attitude, makes you God, and right.
You’re truly an evil infant: FEELINGS don’t make you right stupid. Freakin shame that you’re such a FAIL.
“Hypersensitivity is a freakin shame, nobody can take a joke anymore.”
Then why are you whining dummy? Why don’t you laugh?
FAIL BLIND HYPOCRITE. SO DO AS YOU SAY NOT AS YOU DO HUH? FAIL!
“Hypersensitivity is a freakin shame”
Why should Christians care what a smug pleasure-addicted hypersenstive moron think, who can’t take a joke and is blind to his own hypocrisy? SUPER FAIL!
Hey dummy: you could care less if innocent babies are cut up by their own mothers, and that atheists killed 150,000,000 in less than 100 years in the past 100 years, and continue to torture, rape, enslave, rob and murder Christians in communist and former communist countries and Muslim populated lands. Facts which atheists try to minimize. And you want THOSE WHO WORSHIP CHRIST FOR DYING FOR THEM TO LAUGH WITH YOUR STUPID IGNORANT PETTY LIFE-HATING SELF?
Why would I care what someone who is to lazy to type, “evidence for the Bible” into a search engine and read anything other than “why christians is wrongs” thinks? Your the farthest thing from God you empty demon-possessed narcissist.
“get the fuck over it.”
Because you whined so with foul language like a little kid? Who made you God moron?
Will you get over it and take it as a joke if I repeatedly punch you in the face and break your spine paralyzing you for life and setting you on fire, and then repeatedly stomped your head into the ground, just cuz I said, “freakin shame you’re being too sensitive, laugh you idiot[!]“?
Wait for Judgment Day blasphemer if you want to know even a little of that beating.
“Hypersensitivity is a freakin shame,”
You’re the one “freaking out” moron, blind hypocrite much? And moron, what is a shame is you think your stupid version of shame is worth caring about. A shame is to obey God you dumb preacher of drunken stupidity.
“nobody can take a joke anymore.”
And don’t ya know calling anything a joke makes anything okay, including lying, stealing, rape, child-abuse, and murder?
Why should Christians obey your standard of morality you idiot? Narcissist psychopath much? Will it be funny when God sets you on fire in Hell and you can’t get out? Oh waaaah, you’re in eternal pain trapped int he darkness surrounded by others crying and screaming for mercy forever who can’t even get a drop of water or a moment of rest.
Don’t say you weren’t warned ignorant blasphemer.
“Oh cry about it Jesus freaks.”
Why are you crying that we won’t act however you want us to, control freak? Blind, hypocrite narcissist much?
“Oh waaaah she made a Jesus joke,”
No, she blasphemed using sexual language in a corrupt way, against the Creator of the universe, who is morally perfect, allowed himself to be tortured and executed for millions of hateful people like you giving them eternal life, who has patiently waited for evil morons like you to stop breaking his sacred laws which have brought peace to the world even to sick morons like you who have no conscience or care to know the truth, who is addicted to pleasure, and could care less if innocent babies are cut up by their own mothers, who is so lazy, you can’t even use a search engine to find the easy to see evidence for the Bible, by typing “evidence for the Bible”.
“get the fuck over it.”
Because you whined so with foul language like a little kid? Who made you God moron?
“Hypersensitivity is a freakin shame,”
You’re the one “freaking out” moron, blind hypocrite much? And moroin, what is a shame is you think your stupid version of shame is worth caring about. A shame is to obey God you dumb preacher of drunken stupidity.
“nobody can take a joke anymore.”
And don’t ya know calling anything a joke makes anything okay, including lying, stealing, rape, child-abuse, and murder? Why should Christians obey your standard of morality you idiot? Narcissist psychopath much?
MASSIVE SUPER FAIL.
From 250Rho (3 days ago):
“have a sence of humor jackass jeez im a catholic and i think its halarios”
Why should true Christians obey an admitted hypocrite narcissist like you and have the same dirty sense of humor as you when Jesus forbade making crude sexual jokes you psycopath narcissist? Who made you God you sexually immoral moron who is apart of a “unified Church” that pays its priests to sexually abuse and rape children and to hide the criminals?
Sexual immorality is not funny to those who love the true God, who suffered and died for a select few, which is why most evil morons like yourself have no godly love and reject the truth and right and wrong with moronic laughing, thinking that your mere emotions make whatever you say true. Talk about vain and stupid.
But thanks for showing everyone what the Catholic religion is about: no concern for Christ, their supposed God, just hypocritical lip service. Don’t wine when Jesus beats you and sends you and your lazy mind, foul careless mouth, and genitals to Hell forever. See whose needs a “sense of humor” then, guy with no conscience. Lets see whose laughing when God, who is just oh so funny, robs you of rest forever, oh, he’s so funny, heh. YOU FAIL.
And it’s spelled “sense” not “sence” AND “hilarious” not “halarios” stupid Catholic.
Adrianne said in a rant against vegetarians and animal-rights activists:
Call me crazy, but you would think that if a person wanted you to understand their cause, they would be KIND to you..informative, etc. Nope, I have never got that from a vegan.
Weren’t you the one that insulted the God of the Christians? Who lowered their God’s Son, who suffered extreme pain and death to save them from an eternity of sorrow in Hell, to a severely stupid, lazy-minded, childish-crude-sexual-joke-making slut like you? Nope: we Christian never got any kind, informative, etc. from you. You’re even too lazy to talk like an adult.
I always get the nut jobs. It almost reminds me of terrorists!
So you think it was wise of you to provoke billions of Christians to retaliate by torturing and killing liberals and atheists, atheists who as a group killed over 150,000,000 people in less than 100 years, AND IN THE PAST 100 YEARS, in the name of all things: PROGRESS? So that’s “evolution”? So the atheists in China polluting their air like there is no tomorrow, endangering all the animal life in China and in it’s oceans, let alone all human life there, and menacing other nations with nuclear war, none of that killing, polluting or threatening, is “terrorism” or “nut jobs”? How about you stop simply focusing on what gives you pleasure, and deluding yourself into thinking that you and whatever you love is good, which you do without any logical reason? That way, you might actually look outside your heart and head and have something else to compare yourself too, other than your own endlessly, rehashed, convenient opinions.
This is one of the many reasons I cannot support PETA.
But you, who blasphemed what is nearly most sacred to Christians, severely blashpemed, who is severely hypocritical should be supported? Need I go on? Is it obvious enough yet you are just as bad as “crazy” “nut job” “terrorists”? You provoked Catholics, Catholics who are known for arbitrary behavior, who easily take advantage of others when they see an opportunity to, who killed approximately 50,000,000 in 1000 years and who hoard their donations keeping it from the poor, who are known for protecting child-abusing priests, whose own members continue to support them despite knowing this. So you think you have nothing to do with terrorism when you weaken their weak grasp on Christ even more, by belittling him? They are mass-murder prone and you weakened one of the main pillars that keeps them from going back to direct murder to spread their religion. They are like masses of angry hornets spread throughout the earth, venomous snakes, yet you think you are doing good and not terrorizing by giving them a reason to attack, and not supporting terrorism by supporting evolution (which wasn’t hard to figure out influenced you from after watching your video, and only more than two hours did I see you actually linked to Richard’s Dawkin’s hate site – and you’re just like him: an evil hypocrite and a narcissist). Are you also refreshed by Hitler like Dawkin’s said he was?
You support the same Dawkin’s who thought he’d defeated Christianity by exposing Ted Haggard the ARMINIAN CHRISTIAN (like Dawkin’s you’re a stupid stereotyper who is too lazy and unconcerned about truth to care about the differences between Christian groups) as a ranting idiot. But later!, IT TURNED OUT THAT TED WAS A LIAR AND PLEASURE-ADDICTED HOMOSEXUAL! BACKFIRE! Yet you anti-Christian idiots were so blind you missed that obvious point! And besides that being more evidence hat homosexuals were hypocritical liars (just like Hedda the homosexual admitted in his journal), it was also evidence that ARMINIAN Christians are gullible and and have por logic in comparison their emenies: Calvinists Christains.
Here is evidence, that Ted Haggard merely pretends to be a Christian, or is at least an Arminian:
“every human being is in equally desperate need for redemption… We [Christians]… have been graciously redeemed.”
That is a contradiction and one that Arminians make, everyday when they say, “Jesus died for everyone” and “everyone sins” and “no one is perfect” to conemn anyone who says that anyone is on their way to Hell, yet who emphasize that they are going to Heaven (which is what they imply by saying that they are “redeemed” regardless of whether tor not hey know the exact meaning “redeemed” when they use it).
Another snapshot of that same statement showing another contradiction (and showing how they tie it in to their, “Don’t judge me or anyone else.” teaching:
“every human being is in equally desperate need for redemption and that humanity is so far off track that… there is certainly no basis for any born again Christian to judge another born again Christian. … We are not the fellowship of the self-righteous.”
First, notice he says, “born again Christian”? “Born again” comes from the Bible which has nothing to do with Christians being born again, but Arminians add “Christian” to the end of “Born again” changing the meaning of what Jesus meant. They use that phrase in their refusal to believe the Bible or ignorance of it, not believing or knowing that it says that (false) Christians who nearly understand how to be forgiven of their sins, or who do know the correct way, and who are happy at times to hear God’s word and obey and understand it to some degree, but who, for whatever reason, lose their joy over God’s word, his gifts, his goodness and fully give up obeying him (which they did to try and earn his forgiveness/love and/or eternial life and/or to keep the limited forgiveness that they imagine they have), will never have that joy again and worse, only increase the punishment they deserve if they ever try and feign a change of heart and mind again since God will make it impossible for them to be sincere for having fully rejected him after having joy over his gifts and whatever they knew of his goodness. Arminians reject this teaching even though it is repeatedly taught in the New Testament, and implied in the Old Testament. Arminians also teach “Don’t judge” just as Haggard did, and that is also a contradiction since not only does the entire Bible from the first sentence to the also require moral judgment (moral analysis of what it says/deciding if it is right or wrong), but Jesus and Paul directly stated that mankind is to make correct judgments. Haggard also contradicted himself by judging that the entire world needs to be turned away from evil (which is what Arminians sometimes mean by “redeemed”) and that “born again Christians” already are redeemed. So he’s judged the entire moral situation of the world, how is that “certainly no basis for… judging”? And why did he single out Christians as the ones who shouldn’t judge right from wrong or who is right or wrong?And after that Haggard contradicted himself again, hypocritically saying that it’s “self-righteous” for Christians to judge, yet that itself is a moral judgment against those who judge, not only that, incredibly, in the sentence before that one he judged the entire world to be on its way to Hell and even more, placed himself above all other Christians by allowing himself to judge them but condemning them as self-righteous if they judge.Then right after his “self-righteous” condemnation, in the interview from which his statements were taken, Haggard twisted and contradicted himself, the Bible, artificially making it contradict itself:
“Churches need to accept everyone. … But even the unrepentant sinner in first Corinthians that Paul had put out of the church in second Corinthians he said, “Now take him back—don’t leave him out too long or his sorrow will be too deep.” … Jesus said that you can identify his disciplines by their love for one another…”
Wrong again: Concerning those who refused to accept God’s word (unless you were the husband, wife or parent of such a person), Paul said to “Have nothing to do with them“, literally, “From such turn away” not, “kick them out and then so they won’t be too sorry take them back in again or be friends with them again and consider them a Christian out of love.” No, the Bible does not say to assume, lie, be friends with, or “identify anyone as a Christian, because that has to be done to be loving.”So clearly he is no Calvinist as no Calvinist except ones in name only teach or believe what he said. He is confused because he is blind and still follows his admittedly corrupt heart over God’s will, and his corrupt heart direct his mind, which became corrupted by following his heart.
So Adrianne, your Dawkins didn’t at all defeat every Christian group, but instead exposed fake Christians as being fakes. And even that was nothing, because Calvinists do that every day. At least it was a prominent example of how dumb anti-Christians, liberals and Arminians are: fighting themselves unknowingly while thinking they were winning one over God.
I am not into Fear tactics.
Nah: just drunkenly slopping around verbal sexual assault tactics. Just “act and talk like your a kind, better-than-Christian, high scholar and philosopher” tactics while crudely, callously, blaspheming in the same way as an ignorant, unpunished kid who thinks fancy skirts and appearance and themselves are everything.
I do not believe it makes you or your cause any better,
The religion-ignorant blasphemer believes what? Cool you have beliefs, I care what a stereotyper of Christians (yeah: really all “Mormons”) believes. We should worship you for being a stereotyping bigot who insults Christians without just cause or knowledge of what it is they believe. You’re not dumb for being presumptuous at all Miss “I Have Beliefs and You Should Respect Them But #$@#$@ Yours Ha Ha Ha.”
in fact, it turns most people off from even wanting to listen to you.
Why don’t you take your own advice, and take back the crude sexual insults against our God? Or are you childishly too prideful-over-nothing to do so? You might become unfamous, oh no, if you admit your severe mistakes. Can’t lose that fame or money stream from the dumb and beautiful pandering masses. Nope.
Recently it has been going around that the beautiful Pam Anderson ripped into Jessica Simpson for wearing “Real girls eat Meat” shirt. She called her a BITCH and a WHORE.
Well how terrible of them “Miss Jesus Can Suck My D*** Too! Ha Ha: Those ‘Mormons’ Need To Laugh At My Clever Jokes!”
Now I love Pam,
Wow, you said “Now”, you must be wise. So dramatic. Drama makes you wise don’t you know?
but if she wanted to help bring Jessica to “the other side” perhaps she should have showed some grace
Say what about “grace”? Do you even know what that means? You’re a God-hating sexual blasphemer and in your next words boast about being a lust-monger, yet you talk about “grace”? Talk about hypocritical, vain, forgetful. You white-wash yourself in your own mind, why? How about be humble since you are very far from perfect – not even close to it?
but if she wanted to help bring Jessica to “the other side” perhaps she should have showed some grace and offered some useful knowledge to Jessica instead?
And perhaps you should have done the same to Christians instead of stereotyping them all as the vile Mormons who lead people to Hell? Perhaps you should have done the same instead of making a dumb crude insult against the God of billions of people? Their God, not their cats, gardens, or artwork: but their God you trashed.
There is nothing that upsets me more than when two women I have spent years drooling over are at arms. I think they should have sex and make up….in front of me.
Saying you’re a drooling slut over shallow, hateful women is graceful?
So Adrianne the graceful, useful information giver who says all Christians are Mormons and need to laugh at what their God forbids as extremely evil blasphemy punishable by stoning:
Why were you “sure” that Jesus had a stupid, childish, crude sense of humor like you?
Do you see any of the millions of Reformed Baptists or Presbyterians Christians going around making stupid sick jokes like you, without a concern for offending anyone, because Christ told them, “Hur hur I have sense of humor for dumb sex jokes”? Why are you such a careless shallow idiot? Who said your beauty would last forever, or that your riches would protect you from Hell?
Do you love rapists?: http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v23/i4/rape.asp
Did you know Dawkins lied by pretending he defeated Christianity by exposing an ARMINIAN pastor (too hateful of truth and lazy he is, to distinguish between false and true Christians, just like you are) as a ranting idiot? And when that same pastor was exposed as a HOMOSEXUAL, he, no doubt like many other stupid atheists, illogically saw that as Christianity being defeated, DESPITE THAT SHOWING THAT HOMOSEXUALS AND ARMINIAN CHRISTIANS WERE AS USUAL, SHOWN TO BE HYPOCRITICAL LIARS. And are you too lazy, too obsessed with your withering body to read up on your hero of death Dawkins? To learn what a failure, coward and “crazy, nut job” hypocrite he is? Don’t worry Adrianne: you won’t have to pay more than less than a cent to view that site, your precious money is safe to buy the next coolest comics. Okay you’re not that shallow: so you can watch more “high quality” internet porn and buy some new cool trendy dresses. You’re not a waste of life, not a parasite at all: You’re a kind clean-mouthed, graceful person who is full of useful pictures of your body, oh sorry I mean “knowledge.” Okay, okay so you did quote a line from The Never Ending Story you deep thinker you. Oh wait, Dawkin’s wins over that silly Jesus because Dawkins said in large letters at the top of his forum that evolution advanced the science of astronomy. Yeah… not a crazy nut job at all, but full of grace and useful. Speak and promote baseless, useless stupidity much? Come on everyone let’s advance civilization by doting on Adrienne’s “tons of pictures” of her body and thinking, “evolution advanced astronomy” and watching evolution cartoons on the Discovery Channel all day, and saying, “Praise Darwin, peace be upon him we evolved from bacteria billions of years ago from a giant random explosion proved by scientists” over and over and ignoring everything else. Okay add in mass harassment, torturing and murdering of anyone who promotes belief in a god or God and endless abortions of babies without even anesthetizing them so their mommies can have fun, pain-free lives spent on babbling about how great evolution and Adrienne’s pics are.
You are sure of yourself because you are full of yourself, full of dumb, obviously wrong assumptions. See how much you are laughing when you are severely beaten in front of billions of Christians, looking down on your rotting self, and then thrown into Hell by angels cursing you. See if you can smile when God is always ignoring you no matter how much you cry, scream and beg for forgiveness.
Why do you ask why vegetarians are so angry when you endlessly casually say and do hateful things against God all the time yourself? Like Jesus, whom you surely don’t know said,
in the same way you judge others you will be judged, and with the measure you use will you be measured. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother: ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite: first take the plank out of your own eye, then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. (Matthew 7:2-5)
Why do you ignore the Bible – the world’s best selling book even after Darwin-propaganda has been forced on dozens of millions of children everywhere, and even after atheists killed 150,000,000 people in 90 years and millions of babies – why do you ignore it, which clearly can’t be defeated, not even by an endless flood of stupid, unfunny, dumb, demonic jokes like yours? Why do you ignore it in place of the stupid children’s movie, “The Never Ending Story”? Which speaks out against slave-trading, sexism, racism, lying, stealing, coveting, adultery, rape, and murder?: The Never Ending Story, or God? Which has influenced more literature? Which has more movies based on it, “actress”? Did “The Never Ending Story” and all the other things you watch and read influence God, or did God influence them?
Which do millions make their constant center of attention, and base their lives on? Yet you ignore it in place of cartoons, comics, and a children’s movie. Yet you ignore God, and worship instead all the things he made possible and created.
And what did you learn about the Bible from all your cartoon-studying and material obsessions?: “I’m sure Jesus was a sexually immoral mocker like me,” “I put up tons of pics of my body now,” “(look at me everyone cuz I can quote Never Ending Story and make dumb witted sex jokes that have no punchline even, it’s really hard to do that).”
If you are wondering why “Christians” are “so angry”, start with wondering why you were angry enough at God to trash his only Son, morally perfect Son, bringing him down to your low level.
We are angry because of your unjust anger against our perfect, loving, Father, our Creator, who allowed his perfect Son to severely suffer and die for us out of love, which make seem like nothing at all. We are angry because comfortable idiots like you who have all the time in the world to learn the basic truths about the Bible, and the evidence that supports it, instead, without concern for reality and the well-being of all, but only your personal feelings and those who blindly accept them, make it appear to the world as if suffering in Hell forever is nothing to fear. We are angry at disobedience to God because God is in us:
“You hate all who do wrong.”
“Don’t let the sun go down while you are still angry.”
We also love peace (unlike you and your kind who love violence so much you’re addicted to violent games, movies and violent speech), because God is in us:
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. – Galatians 5:19-23
mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God—having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them. – 2 Timothy 3:1-5
The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned. – Matthew 12:35-37
don’t fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. – Matthew 10:28
And Adrianne: if you think my arguments against me were “angry”; wait till you meet God:
An evil man is bent only on rebellion;
a merciless official will be sent against him. -
the wicked will be swept away.
The righteous will be glad when
they are avenged, when they bathe
their feet in the blood of the wicked.
Then men will say, “Surely the righteous
still are rewarded; surely there is a God
who judges the earth.”
There’s a reason God makes threats and that physical punishment is used: not just to keep evil people like you from continuing to offend and damage, but because it is just to punish those who do wrong. You’re parents or whoever raised you, hated you whenever they didn’t punish you when you clearly deserved it.
A servant cannot be corrected by mere words;
though he understands, he will not respond.
Don’t worry: that doesn’t mean God will necessarily beat you to wake you from your spiritual sleep, because hopefully you’ve had enough and have seen Hellish experiences to know what’s coming.
These are my answers to the rant titled, “Challenge to Protestants: Is the Book of Esther in the Canon of Scripture?” by a narcissist heretic Catholic named Taylor Marshall:
“The Catholic Christian has the comfort of knowing that the Holy Spirit can lead the Church to make infallible statements.”
And whatever you, financial supporter of the abuse of children, including children who trust in Christ – you, a member of a disunified, arbitrary denomination whose pope’s are too cowardly and dishonest to declare the Shroud of Turin as genuine due to their acceptance of demonic plagued stigmatics who receive “wounds of Christ” on the wrong place (on their hands, not their wrists, where the Shroud of Turin shows they should be which anatomical scientists agree with), member of a denomination that was deceived in ancient times by a stigmatic woman who admitted to being attacked by demon rather than showing the signs of God), member of a demon which calls a “saint” a atheistic, donation-misusing, explosive-tempered, sadistic, idolatrous approver-of-false-religions, demon-harassed nun (Mother Theresa), member of a denomination that killed approximately 50 million people for not converting to Catholicism including some other Catholics falsely accused of being witches (which they killed out of pride and/or coveting that Catholic’s property), member of an idolatrous church which approves of the removal of the command not to bow down to idols (when God said that no one is to remove any part of Scripture from his word), member of denomination that says they can be possessed by demons at any time, member of a denomination that does not accept the fact that Jesus suffered and died completely for all the sins of the ones he chose to save, that no one else can suffer or die for another person’s sins or complete payment for their own, and not just some, and member of a denomination that rejects the clear fact that God’s forgiveness, mercy, love, compassion, is priceless, rather than being able to be sold and bought as the Catholic church officially permits – whatever a Catholic of this type of church says is true, is true, because it’s God. WRONG. You are not God.
“How do you know that the Book of Esther is the inspired Word of God and belongs in the canon of Scripture? This is a question I often ask Protestants.”
And whatever you say is trustworthy is trustworthy because you said so. Wrong. And who are the protestants you asked liar? You sure didn’t ask me when I challenged you to stop supporting child abuse, and to explain why you persecuted Calvin for quoting Scripture when it said that Jesus suffered Hellfire – you saying that that was the worst heresy, when Scripture makes it clear that to claim that God’s Spirit is a demon is the worst sin and that tempting a kid who is saved is clearly the second worst or among the worst. It says a lot that Catholics keep ignoring the abuse of children.
“The Protestant literally has no way to prove that the book of Esther is inspired by God and belongs in the Bible.”
Wow Taylor: You mean God can’t tell them? So God only talks to Catholics? What an arrogant oversight that was huh? Why do you miss the obvious? So people can only figure out things unless God gives them the direct answer?
By the way stereotyper, for the 6 billionth time: Protestants aren’t a Church, stop talking about us like we’re all the same. That is why you are lost and unlearned: You, if you really did ask some Protestants anything, didn’t bother asking all the main types, or anyone older than 7 years old, rather you acted like they were all the same, and avoided any real challenge to your baseless heresies.
Where’s your basic imagination ability? Suppressed by Satan obviously (just as you Catholics claim can be done). Here: I’ll help you out again:
“Little 6-year-old Jimmy’s dad, Taylor, sat in his chair in distress, he said to his son, ‘Jimmy, I’m so stressed out: despite having a mind and brain with countless neurons, I can’t figure out what the true religion is. I can’t even figure out why the book of Esther would be God’s word or not, if it is or not. I know: I’ll just believe the pope whenever he uses the magic mantra: “God said so while he was sitting on his throne.” Which in the sacred holy language of holy people is ‘ex Cathedra’. Jimmy then said to his dad, ‘Well if God put it in his word isn’t it his word?’ Taylor got a look of confusion on his face, hating his son for saying what sounded stupid to him. ‘Idiot what are you talking about? What are you some dumb Protestant? One of those fundies?’ Though Jimmy didn’t understand what his dad said, he felt hurt at his dad’s tone. Then his dad said, ‘It doesn’t say it’s God’s word you moron! Now how are you, an unspecial little idiot going to say you know!’ Jimmy replied, ‘But why would God need to say he’s the one that said it all the time? Can’t you tell if he’s talking to you or not.’ Taylor’s pride was hurt and he became very offended and immediately pushed his son on the forehead. Jimmy felt very sad that his dad was being violent and that no one was around to see it. Taylor then said, ‘It doesn’t say it’s his word you little idiot. Want me to take you to that child-molesting priest?’ His son replied with a distressed pleading tone: ‘But dad it’s in his word.’ ‘How do you know what is his word you little bastard!’ His dad replied with a red face and hateful frown.’ ‘Because his Spirit is in me,’ his son replied. Taylor immediately replied, ‘Blasphemer! You don’t accept the pope! You can’t accept God’s word if you don’t trust in the pope as your savior! You are no son of mine to talk to me like this! How about we go to that child-molesting priest now! Huh! How would you like that you little fundie! I’m the one with God’s Spirit in me because I trust pope!’ Suddenly a demon entered his dad and it ran away from Jimmy and out a window, and his dad fell to the ground and died.
Was that so hard to imagine Taylor? Now little Jimmy isn’t right, as anyone can stick a book into God’s word, but are you right in your logic?
“It is never quoted in the New Testament.”
Why would it need to be quoted in the New Testament? Did God say, “Unless I quote a book from the Old Testament then it’s not valid.”? No moron, he did not. And your logic also implies that God would need to requote every single verse in the New Testament. Talk about “blind” and “without God’s Spirit” and “they have no common sense”.
Neither does Genesis say, “The next book after this one is going to be called Exodus, and that’s how you’ll know it’s my word, and this is what it will say: [...], and it’s going to be God’s word cuz I said so.” NOR DOES IT HAVE TO, BECAUSE MERE CLAIMS AREN’T HOW YOU FIGURE OUT WHAT GOD’S WORD IS. If you believe mere claims make you or anyone else right (but conveniently not those Protestants), you are biased and insane and think you are equal to God in authority despite what you MERELY CLAIM with your mouth. You suffer from narcissism, from extreme pride.
“It never mentions the word “God” in its pages.”
So if it mentions, “God” in some sentence, then that would verify the whole book of Esther huh? You’re an illogical idiot.
Neither does God need to say before every single sentence: “I, God says:”. No; You’re a moron. And that also shows your bad logic: So if something says, “God says,” then it’s his word? Are you massively illogical and gullible? YES. YOU DON’T FIGURE OUT WHAT GOD’S WORD IS BY WHETHER OR NOT THE PERSON WHO MAKES THE STATEMENT MERELY CLAIM THAT IT WAS GOD’S WORD OR THAT GOD WAS SPEAKING THROUGH HIM. How can you not know the utter obvious? It is because you are UTTERLY SPIRITUALLY BLIND.
“We don’t know who wrote it.”
You don’t speak for 60 million Calvinists let alone 120 million Protestants you royal “We” narcissist. You aren’t my spokesperson, you aren’t my king. Stop speaking for me and misrepresenting me stupid.
“Even the first century Jews could not agree on its place as Scripture.”
And only what the Jews agree on is Scripture is Scripture. NO: CONSENSUS DOES NOT DETERMINTE THE TRUTH! YOU ARE AN EVIL MORON. MAJORITY DOESN’T MAKE RIGHT LET ALONE A MAJORITY OF JEWS.
AND WHEN DID THE CATHOLIC CHURCH FIRST EXIST? ACCORDING TO YOU CATHOLICS IT WAS AT ABOUT THE TIME JESUS DIED. SO THEN, RACIST, USING THAT INSANE LOGIC, THE APOSTLES WERE NOT SAVED, DID NOT KNOW OR UNDERSTAND GOD’S WORD, BECAUSE THERE WAS NO CATHOLIC TO TELL ANYONE, “THIS IS GOD’S WORD.” USING YOUR LOGIC EVERYONE BEFORE CHRIST WENT TO HELL BECAUSE THEY COULDN’T TELL WHAT GOD’S WORD WAS. Catholics didn’t exist before Jesus was born Taylor, how then did any Jews or anyone at all know what God’s word truly was if only Catholics can know and understand how to be saved? Catholic tradition didn’t exist either, let alone “ex Cathedra”. So you would have the world believe that hundreds of thousands of Jews, even Moses and John the Baptist, perhaps over a million people that God saved, went to Hell because they didn’t have a pope in Rome with the magic “ex cathedra” line? Obviously God’s Spirit was given to those who were not Catholics and Catholicism then is not the one true religion as you claim it is. You current pope and the previous pope don’t believe that Catholicism is the only way to eternal life. What’s that say about your denomination’s unity when your own heads oppose millions of you on the heart of Christianity: Who the true God is and how to be saved? You’re right thoug: there is only one true religion, but TO THOSE WHO AREN’T SPIRITUALLY BLIND, you are clearly opposed to it.
“I sometimes also ask [and whatever you claim is true is true cuz u said so], ‘How do you know that the Book of Third John is the inspired Word of God and belongs in the Bible?”
Taylor, why are you repeating yourself? Why wasn’t Esther a good enough example? Is there something more special about the New than Old Testament? Did the Pope tell you to imply that the Old Testament, the Law and Prophets on which the New Testament is based, is inferior? No: why then are you speaking like a Pope having just said the magic “ex coooohtheeeedraaaaaah” spell?
“It doesn’t claim to be written by an apostolic author and its authority was doubted by many early Christians.”
Redundant genius: repeating yourself doesn’t make you right either, okay “vain repition” Catholic?: See above.
“The Catholic Christian has the comfort of knowing that the Holy Spirit can lead the Church to make infallible statements.”
So now you speak for all Catholics Mr. “Whatever I Say is True is True Because I Said, ‘I Haaaaaaaaaave the Spiriiiiiiiiiiiiit!’”, Mr. He-man Catholic? No: Whatever you say is not true merely because you feel you are, say you are, or say it with your magic, “Well I have the Spirit” spell.
And so all Catholics know and understand God’s word well, including the the millions of nominal (divided by their ignorance by you Pharisee Catholics) which are accepted into your false church as being Pharisees just like you? Amazing that despite the obvious disunity in your church you even speak for them as if you were all one. Truly: you are all one, and divided.
“Thus, the Bible is an infallible collection of infallible books.”
Bananas = oranges because many Catholics, not just priests abuse and molest other Catholic children, and that deserves having a millstone placed around their neck and them being thrown into the sea afterwards. How about not making illogical claims like that? Narcissist babbler who could care less about Truth, does this make any sense:
“The Catholic Christian has the comfort of knowing that the Holy Spirit can lead the Church to make infallible statements = Thus, the Bible is an infallible collection of infallible books.”
NO: FEELING COMFORT IN A BELIEF DOESN’T MAKE ANOTHER BELIEF TRUE. YOUR MERE FEELINGS DO NOT MAKE YOU RIGHT TAYLOR. And what happened to the Spirit? First it’s God’s Spirit justifies you because you said so, then it’s “comfort in believing you have the Spirit” justifies the magic Catholics. Which is it: your sacred, infallible feelings or God’s Spirit? You can’t serve two masters Catholics: You will love one and hate the other.”
“However, the Protestant must follow the line that R.C. Sproul often gives: The Bible is a fallible collection of infallible books.”
Uh, no, we must not follow R.C. Sproul; we must follow God as God alone, not whatever you merely claim is true, you hypocritical accuser. So do as you say but not as you do huh: “It’s okay for Catholics to follow their own mere claims, but not okay for those all-the-same Protestants to follow whatever R.C. Sproul says”? Typical Catholic: You endlessly contradict yourselves because you fail to see acknowledge that you are inferior to God and not like him in goodness.
“The Protestant can never give a reason for why he believes that Esther or 3 John belong in the canon of Scripture.”
You are God-hating, prideful, lost, blind, hypocrite and liar, and I will not read the rest of your bitter, time-wasting, slanderous, hypocritical, lies IN WHICH YOU PREVENT ANY FURTHER COMMENTS AFTER “105″ NO DOUBT MADE BY MANY CATHOLICS, AND FEW PROTESTANTS, AS IF A FEW PROTESTANTS REPRESENTS 60+ MILLION CALVINISTS. ON TOP OF THAT YOU DON’T EVEN ALLOW THOSE REPLIES TO BE SEEN!:
With an injured right shoulder socket and muscles, and slow netbook, it took me about 40 minutes to write the bulk of this reply. And can you show your Catholic friends and us “Protestants” your Pope-approved, ex cathedra, Sacred-Tradition-reply Taylor, and not your defective, error-prone word? Clearly it would be just as bad as you all do the same thing: hold your feelings and word above God’s word and his traditions. I’ll praise you for this, “however”: at least your rant wasn’t filled with pretentious words. Your attitude, “however”, is a “different matter”.
So much for you being an honest and fair person.
A crucial key to understanding the how the fight in Esther started: The Nations of the Bible: Amalekites
The historical accuracy of Esther: http://www.tektonics.org/af/esther.html
An excavation of Esther: http://www.textexcavation.com/esther.html
A Mystery in the Megillah: http://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/4_6/megillah
The uniqueness of Esther: http://www.estherofthebible.com
A view of Esther which gives evidence as to why it is not God’s word:
Whether it is God’s word or not, this is for sure: It’s not his word for any of the illogical reasons you gave.
WISDOM IS KNOWN BY HER CHILDREN